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PFC_Dustin
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Posted: 1/31/2012 12:36:30 AM
I’m about to start buying for a War belt and one of the uses will be for competition. I started a thread with some of these questions in the Tactical gear/Armory section but wasn’t getting answers on the competition related questions in my thread. So I figured for those someone here might be able to help.

I’ve been looking at the double decker Tacos as a space saving option on the belt. Using them would allow me to carry 3 rifle and 3 pistol mags without creating "reachability" problems. The alternative is 2 Blackhawk CQC pistol mag holsters (which I have and like), and 2 Esstac KYWI AR mag pouches.

Over all I plan on putting pistol mags then rifle mags on the left, then a dump pouch behind my back. On the right my pistol (Serpa holster) either on the molle or a drop leg depending on how my range tests for each go and then a small IFAK. If I have room I’d like to add a zippered utility pouch for gloves and hearing/eye pro and/or a pouch for an H2o bottle.

So far I am leaning toward the KYWI mag pouches for the rifle and the CQC pistol mag holsters. But I’m worried 2 of each might not be enough for competitions. So here’s my questions.

How many mags/ rounds do most people need for each pistols and rifles in a normal 3gun or tactical rifle competition?

How fast are Tacos compared to KYWI to draw Pmags from?

With the Double Decker Taco does it get more difficult to draw the pistol when the rifle mag pouch is empty?

And could someone critique my planned set-up?

Here’s the link to the other thread if anyone wants to chime in there.


http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_10/362207_Taco__kywi_and_War_belt_questions.html
StealthyBlagga
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Posted: 1/31/2012 12:17:29 PM
It looks like you got good answers from the tactical perspective. For 3-gun competition, the war belt kind of rig is always going to be a compromise. Most of us competitors run competition equipment - I just started using the Safariland ELS which is a great system for 3-gun, but maybe not so much for your tactical needs.

To answer your questions, 3 pistol and 3 rifle mags should more than suffice, assuming you can hit what you are shooting at (3 x 30 round mags can go really fast if you are missing a lot). For 3-gun I normally have 4 pistol mags so I don't have to carry my loading mag in a pocket etc., and this is way more than I will ever need (68+1 rounds). Usually I carry only one spare 43-round rifle magazine on my belt, with the option of a second rifle magazine around the back if I add an extra pouch via the ELS clip back there. My primary rifle ammo starts in/on the gun, either a 60 round magazine (2 x PMAG w/CCW coupler, or a Surefire) or a pair of cinched 43 round magazines... with this approach (60-86 rounds on the gun) I don't expect to go to the belt for rifle ammo at all unless the wheels have really fallen off. On the rare occasion that I encounter a really high rifle round count, I also have the option of adding a Specter 4-mag thigh rig (also works great for Heavy Metal mags), but this mostly stays in my gear box.

You did not mention shotgun ammo carriers. If you are planning to use the dump pouch, you are going to find this a very slow solution. On the other hand, if tactical considerations are more important to you then maybe you don't care about excelling with shotgun.
PFC_Dustin
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Posted: 2/1/2012 1:10:54 AM
Originally Posted By StealthyBlagga:
It looks like you got good answers from the tactical perspective. For 3-gun competition, the war belt kind of rig is always going to be a compromise. Most of us competitors run competition equipment - I just started using the Safariland ELS which is a great system for 3-gun, but maybe not so much for your tactical needs.

To answer your questions, 3 pistol and 3 rifle mags should more than suffice, assuming you can hit what you are shooting at (3 x 30 round mags can go really fast if you are missing a lot). For 3-gun I normally have 4 pistol mags so I don't have to carry my loading mag in a pocket etc., and this is way more than I will ever need (68+1 rounds). Usually I carry only one spare 43-round rifle magazine on my belt, with the option of a second rifle magazine around the back if I add an extra pouch via the ELS clip back there. My primary rifle ammo starts in/on the gun, either a 60 round magazine (2 x PMAG w/CCW coupler, or a Surefire) or a pair of cinched 43 round magazines... with this approach (60-86 rounds on the gun) I don't expect to go to the belt for rifle ammo at all unless the wheels have really fallen off. On the rare occasion that I encounter a really high rifle round count, I also have the option of adding a Specter 4-mag thigh rig (also works great for Heavy Metal mags), but this mostly stays in my gear box.

You did not mention shotgun ammo carriers. If you are planning to use the dump pouch, you are going to find this a very slow solution. On the other hand, if tactical considerations are more important to you then maybe you don't care about excelling with shotgun.



Thank you for your reply.

For shotgun I have a shell holder on the side of it, an arm band and if I need to Ill get a caddy. I would like to get better with the shotgun but I don’t think it’s going to be my strong point because I just have an 870 pump. I’ve modified it to speed up reloading but no matter how hard I try I can’t keep up with a semi-auto. Once I get a better shotgun is probably when I’ll get a designated competition rig instead of a multi-tasking one.

It may be off topic but any tips on using a pump for competition?
StealthyBlagga
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Posted: 2/1/2012 10:42:07 PM
Originally Posted By PFC_Dustin:
It may be off topic but any tips on using a pump for competition?


The 870 is not the best design for fast pumping because it's locking block will lock the bolt closed if you try to pump too fast. The rotating bolt guns like Winchesters and Benellis are much better for our game.

As you are stuck with the 870, make sure your hold on the forend is neutral until the shot has left the barrel. I find that I can use the muzzle rise to initiate my pumping action. Make sure the bolt hits the back of the receiver full speed before you start the forward motion. Failing to do so will result in short stroking, which is very common under match stress. Some other hardware issues to be aware of:

- If you have an 870 Express, the chances are the chamber is also a bit rough - polishing with steel wool on a drill, or (better) with a flex hone will make the gun run a lot smoother.
- With extended magazine tubes and fast pumping, a phenomenon called "shell surge" can result in the fired shell being ejected but a new shell not being released from the magazine. The fix is to go with a stronger magazine spring. I actually retimed the shall latches on mine, but it was a major job involving welding on the action bars, so not for the casual hobbyist.

HTH
PFC_Dustin
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Posted: 2/2/2012 1:36:31 AM
Originally Posted By StealthyBlagga:
Originally Posted By PFC_Dustin:
It may be off topic but any tips on using a pump for competition?


The 870 is not the best design for fast pumping because it's locking block will lock the bolt closed if you try to pump too fast. The rotating bolt guns like Winchesters and Benellis are much better for our game.

As you are stuck with the 870, make sure your hold on the forend is neutral until the shot has left the barrel. I find that I can use the muzzle rise to initiate my pumping action. Make sure the bolt hits the back of the receiver full speed before you start the forward motion. Failing to do so will result in short stroking, which is very common under match stress. Some other hardware issues to be aware of:

- If you have an 870 Express, the chances are the chamber is also a bit rough - polishing with steel wool on a drill, or (better) with a flex hone will make the gun run a lot smoother.
- With extended magazine tubes and fast pumping, a phenomenon called "shell surge" can result in the fired shell being ejected but a new shell not being released from the magazine. The fix is to go with a stronger magazine spring. I actually retimed the shall latches on mine, but it was a major job involving welding on the action bars, so not for the casual hobbyist.

HTH


Thank you for all your tips. So far I've upgraded the tube spring, added a titanium follower and I opened up and polished the loading port. I was hoping the Knoxx stock would help speed things up but it just broke instead lol. I'll polish the chamber like you said; it does feel a little rough especially compared to my friends Benelli.
jtischauser
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Posted: 2/7/2012 11:45:20 AM
[Last Edit: 2/7/2012 11:46:35 AM by jtischauser]
Originally Posted By PFC_Dustin:
I’m about to start buying for a War belt and one of the uses will be for competition. I started a thread with some of these questions in the Tactical gear/Armory section but wasn’t getting answers on the competition related questions in my thread. So I figured for those someone here might be able to help.
I’ve been looking at the double decker Tacos as a space saving option on the belt. Using them would allow me to carry 3 rifle and 3 pistol mags without creating "reachability" problems. The alternative is 2 Blackhawk CQC pistol mag holsters (which I have and like), and 2 Esstac KYWI AR mag pouches.
Over all I plan on putting pistol mags then rifle mags on the left, then a dump pouch behind my back. On the right my pistol (Serpa holster) either on the molle or a drop leg depending on how my range tests for each go and then a small IFAK. If I have room I’d like to add a zippered utility pouch for gloves and hearing/eye pro and/or a pouch for an H2o bottle.
So far I am leaning toward the KYWI mag pouches for the rifle and the CQC pistol mag holsters. But I’m worried 2 of each might not be enough for competitions. So here’s my questions.
How many mags/ rounds do most people need for each pistols and rifles in a normal 3gun or tactical rifle competition?
How fast are Tacos compared to KYWI to draw Pmags from?
With the Double Decker Taco does it get more difficult to draw the pistol when the rifle mag pouch is empty?
And could someone critique my planned set-up?
Here’s the link to the other thread if anyone wants to chime in there.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_10/362207_Taco__kywi_and_War_belt_questions.html


I normally want to have one 30 round backup mags and two 23 round pistol mag on my belt for what I would consider a typical stage. Sometimes I will carry a 2nd rifle magazine on my belt if I know I am going to have to do a mag change. You want one mag that is only there as a backup. Meaning you will not use it unless one of your other mags breaks while its in your gun.
You can run anything you want gear wise but your setup is not tailored for speed. It is much more tactical that the gear the top guys use in 3 gun. Anytime you try to do two things with one set of gear you are going to have to comprimise on something.
JESSE
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PFC_Dustin
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Posted: 2/8/2012 1:31:35 AM
Originally Posted By jtischauser:
Originally Posted By PFC_Dustin:
I’m about to start buying for a War belt and one of the uses will be for competition. I started a thread with some of these questions in the Tactical gear/Armory section but wasn’t getting answers on the competition related questions in my thread. So I figured for those someone here might be able to help.
I’ve been looking at the double decker Tacos as a space saving option on the belt. Using them would allow me to carry 3 rifle and 3 pistol mags without creating "reachability" problems. The alternative is 2 Blackhawk CQC pistol mag holsters (which I have and like), and 2 Esstac KYWI AR mag pouches.
Over all I plan on putting pistol mags then rifle mags on the left, then a dump pouch behind my back. On the right my pistol (Serpa holster) either on the molle or a drop leg depending on how my range tests for each go and then a small IFAK. If I have room I’d like to add a zippered utility pouch for gloves and hearing/eye pro and/or a pouch for an H2o bottle.
So far I am leaning toward the KYWI mag pouches for the rifle and the CQC pistol mag holsters. But I’m worried 2 of each might not be enough for competitions. So here’s my questions.
How many mags/ rounds do most people need for each pistols and rifles in a normal 3gun or tactical rifle competition?
How fast are Tacos compared to KYWI to draw Pmags from?
With the Double Decker Taco does it get more difficult to draw the pistol when the rifle mag pouch is empty?
And could someone critique my planned set-up?
Here’s the link to the other thread if anyone wants to chime in there.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_10/362207_Taco__kywi_and_War_belt_questions.html


I normally want to have one 30 round backup mags and two 23 round pistol mag on my belt for what I would consider a typical stage. Sometimes I will carry a 2nd rifle magazine on my belt if I know I am going to have to do a mag change. You want one mag that is only there as a backup. Meaning you will not use it unless one of your other mags breaks while its in your gun.
You can run anything you want gear wise but your setup is not tailored for speed. It is much more tactical that the gear the top guys use in 3 gun. Anytime you try to do two things with one set of gear you are going to have to comprimise on something.


Im hoping with the KYWI rifle mag pouches and the CQC's for the pistol mags I found a decent balance of speed and tactical with a little edge toward speed.
jtischauser
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Posted: 2/8/2012 8:56:22 AM
Can u post a link to those acronyms? I have never heard if the stuff you're referring to.
JESSE
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PFC_Dustin
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Posted: 2/8/2012 11:43:50 AM
Originally Posted By jtischauser:
Can u post a link to those acronyms? I have never heard if the stuff you're referring to.


Im sorry I havnt slept in a while so Im shortening everything.

KYWI- Esstac Kydex Wedge Insert
http://www.skdtac.com/Esstac-M4-Double-Wedge-Mag-Pouch-w-KYWI-p/ess.219.htm

CQC- Blackhawk CQC double stack pistol mag case
http://www.blackhawk.com/product/Double-Stack-Mag-Case-Matte-Finish,1368,82.htm


OlKev
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Posted: 2/8/2012 12:08:35 PM
Check out THIS THREAD
jtischauser
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Posted: 2/8/2012 12:14:15 PM
Originally Posted By OlKev:
Check out THIS THREAD


Cool! Those pistol mags look slow because they are tall but the rifle mag pouches will do fine.
JESSE
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PFC_Dustin
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Posted: 2/9/2012 4:31:09 AM
Originally Posted By jtischauser:
Originally Posted By OlKev:
Check out THIS THREAD


Cool! Those pistol mags look slow because they are tall but the rifle mag pouches will do fine.


I actually thought they were pretty fast at least compared to anything else Ive used. Heres a pic with the mags in. What do you think?



jtischauser
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Posted: 2/9/2012 9:29:28 AM
Originally Posted By PFC_Dustin:
Originally Posted By jtischauser:
Originally Posted By OlKev:
Check out THIS THREAD


Cool! Those pistol mags look slow because they are tall but the rifle mag pouches will do fine.


I actually thought they were pretty fast at least compared to anything else Ive used. Heres a pic with the mags in. What do you think?

http://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n506/DDustin5/IMAG1428.jpg



The pictures I saw in that thread (I didn't read all 30+ pages) had the pistol mags in a deep mag pouch and the AR mags in a shallower mag pouch. Speed isn't a huge deal on mag changes in 3 gun as you are almost always moving if you actually have to change a magazine. You rarely have to change mags in the rifle especially if you get the higher capacity mags which I highly recommend. The pistol can require one may change on a high round count pistol stage if you have the extended magazine base pads which I highly recommend as well.

JESSE
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PFC_Dustin
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Posted: 2/9/2012 9:20:04 PM
[Last Edit: 2/9/2012 9:21:00 PM by PFC_Dustin]
Im shooting an XD45 for pistols. The highest Ive seen is 14 I think but I havnt looked around in a while. Ive got all 13rnd mags. Once I get more money I might consider getting a different caliber for higher capacity. Whats a normal pistol round count?

Would you consider the pistol and rifle mag pouches I have too deep?
jtischauser
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Posted: 2/9/2012 10:24:28 PM
That is up to you to decide. Its a trade off between retention and speed. If you can't keep your mags secure the speed don't matter.

This is what the competition only gear looks like. They both have tension adjustment knobs do you can tighten them up when you gotta run or jump and loosen them up when you need to be fast.


JESSE
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PFC_Dustin
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Posted: 2/9/2012 11:13:17 PM
I can adjust the rifle mag height and tension but I would really like to adjust the pistol mags. Ill have to think of something since one is a bit tight compared to the other. Also once I find a place to run drills I can test out the set up and see how I feel from there.

Whats the brand of the ones you posted.
jtischauser
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Posted: 2/10/2012 10:02:31 AM
Originally Posted By PFC_Dustin:
I can adjust the rifle mag height and tension but I would really like to adjust the pistol mags. Ill have to think of something since one is a bit tight compared to the other. Also once I find a place to run drills I can test out the set up and see how I feel from there.

Whats the brand of the ones you posted.


The pistol pouch is a CR Speed model. I only use it for pistol matches. Its retention is just OK.

CR Speed Versa Pouch

I use the bladetech competition series pistol and Ar mag pouches for 3 gun.

Bladetech Competition Series Mag Pouches

Bladetech Kydex AR15 Mag Pouch

The plastic model is cheaper and works just as well just doens't look as clean IMHO as the kydex.
Bladetech Plastic AR15 Mag Pouch
JESSE
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nihilsum
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Posted: 2/12/2012 12:23:12 AM
Good advice above.

If you are going to stick with a molle belt, some recommendations:

Eagle FB attach via molle loops. I've used the rifle version at work. They have friction retention and using the flaps is optional.

ITW Fastmag is a great product for AR mags that works very well.

Shell caddies are great. You could do fine reloading your shotgun strong hand using an arm band and weapon mounted saddle, but nothing is going to be as fast as weak hand caddy reloads. I think safariland makes some you can add molle forks to that aren't crazy expensive.

Reloading is key in shotgunning, and will make or break stages.

I used an 870 at first and hated it. It is a good shotgun, but as mentioned its manipulation and operating characteristics don't do it any favors for action shooting like this. You may want to polish your chamber as they have a tendency to lock up and refuse to extract.
PFC_Dustin
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Posted: 2/12/2012 2:01:56 AM
[Last Edit: 2/12/2012 2:02:29 AM by PFC_Dustin]
Ive seen fast mags but what makes them so popular and fast? Are they good enough for double comp/tactical duty?
jtischauser
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Posted: 2/12/2012 9:04:24 AM
Hey man I just wanted to tell you that you do NOT need to go buy gear like I have. I just wanted to show you what sorta thing gamers like me use. Go shoot a bunch of matches and see what works for you. Check out everyone's gear and determine what will work for you. Good luck!
JESSE
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PFC_Dustin
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Posted: 2/12/2012 7:00:47 PM
Originally Posted By jtischauser:
Hey man I just wanted to tell you that you do NOT need to go buy gear like I have. I just wanted to show you what sorta thing gamers like me use. Go shoot a bunch of matches and see what works for you. Check out everyone's gear and determine what will work for you. Good luck!


Dont worry Im not getting more gear till Ive done a little more. Except the shotgun Im replacing that as soon as possible. But thanks for all the input and advice so far.

BRider
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Posted: 6/2/2012 1:14:29 AM
Esstac makes a "shorty" KYWI pouch that would be better suited for 3 gun, it gives you more space to grab the mag but the wedge holds it in place. I general i have found that war belts don't work as well as a plain old duty belt with some blade-tech pistol and AR mag pouches.

Shorty
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Posted: 6/2/2012 6:23:06 AM
Originally Posted By BRider:
Esstac makes a "shorty" KYWI pouch that would be better suited for 3 gun, it gives you more space to grab the mag but the wedge holds it in place. I general i have found that war belts don't work as well as a plain old duty belt with some blade-tech pistol and AR mag pouches.

Shorty


Thanks I that looks awesome. I'll probably replace the ones I'm using with those and put the taller ones I have on something else.