AR15.Com Archives
 .223 match chamber
Lozza  [Member]
4/9/2011 1:17:59 PM
Hi guys, I'm new to the world of full bore rifles, and recently took delivery of my first .223 AR15. I had ordered a heavy fluted bull barrel as part of my build. I am able to get hold of plenty of military 5.56 ammunition, I'm not sure of who makes it as it comes in a Bae systems bag and is stamped with RG (Radway Green I assume) on the boxes within. However after firing my first round through my barrel I found it extremely difficult to extract the case. It involved a great deal of force using both the rear charging handle as well as the side charging handle to extract the round. I decided to try another round just in case, and found the same problem. Luckily I did not damage my rifle but was very surprised that this happened. Is it a requirement to shoot only expensive match ammo from such a barrel and if so which brands do you experienced guys recommend?
The_Original_HMB  [Team Member]
4/9/2011 1:48:37 PM
Try Ruag ammo far better than RG. I used to have extraction problems with RG in my AR but not as bad as yours
IcarusY625  [Team Member]
4/9/2011 2:17:18 PM
I had Wylde chambering in mine. Takes anything and is still very accurate..................loves RUAG........when I can find it...
Lozza  [Member]
4/9/2011 2:21:46 PM
I wish I had known about these different chambers before! Well you live and you learn I suppose. I will look into Ruag ammo. My nearest supplier does also stock some PRVI 75gr match .223 which I may also look into trying very soon. Thanks for your advice guys
IcarusY625  [Team Member]
4/9/2011 2:26:29 PM
Originally Posted By Lozza:
I wish I had known about these different chambers before! Well you live and you learn I suppose. I will look into Ruag ammo. My nearest supplier does also stock some PRVI 75gr match .223 which I may also look into trying very soon. Thanks for your advice guys


I believe you can still get it done. Consult an expert, or you could ask Bradders but he keeps saying he is crap........................
Bradders  [Moderator]
4/9/2011 2:33:08 PM
Originally Posted By IcarusY625:
Originally Posted By Lozza:
I wish I had known about these different chambers before! Well you live and you learn I suppose. I will look into Ruag ammo. My nearest supplier does also stock some PRVI 75gr match .223 which I may also look into trying very soon. Thanks for your advice guys


I believe you can still get it done. Consult an expert, or you could ask Bradders but he keeps saying he is crap........................


The chamber reamer doesn't matter that much, it's the chamber finish and headspace that decides whether it likes RG

ETA: Have you thought about taking it bach to where you bought it from?
Lozza  [Member]
4/9/2011 2:42:17 PM
Yeah I have, did have a conversation with the guy and he told me that match ammo would work fine. The annoying thing is that I wanted to use both military surplus ammo and match ammo through it.
FALus  [Member]
4/9/2011 2:58:19 PM
Where did you get it?
Bradders  [Moderator]
4/9/2011 3:06:30 PM
Originally Posted By FALus:
Where did you get it?


Well he ordered it with a heavy fluted barrel, so he didn't get it from me

£10 says it's from Bodmin
IcarusY625  [Team Member]
4/9/2011 4:03:15 PM
Originally Posted By Bradders:
Originally Posted By FALus:
Where did you get it?


Well he ordered it with a heavy fluted barrel, so he didn't get it from me

£10 says it's from Bodmin


That was my wild guess too......................
rbecks  [Team Member]
4/9/2011 4:06:34 PM

Originally Posted By Bradders:
Originally Posted By FALus:
Where did you get it?


Well he ordered it with a heavy fluted barrel, so he didn't get it from me

£10 says it's from Bodmin


B_R  [Team Member]
4/9/2011 4:08:35 PM
Originally Posted By Bradders:
Originally Posted By FALus:
Where did you get it?


Well he ordered it with a heavy fluted barrel, so he didn't get it from me

£10 says it's from Bodmin


I will take some of that action

Have no idea what chamber I have - but it has never had ANY extraction problems at all.

Would like to have it fluted but a niggling voice says "if it works, dont change it "
DaddyPig  [Team Member]
4/9/2011 4:14:37 PM
Originally Posted By FALus:
Where did you get it?


Big Bob's bull barrel boutique.... Where else..
Lozza  [Member]
4/9/2011 5:05:38 PM
Let's just say your guesses are on the money. Bit concerned now that B_R has a similar rifle with no issues.
rbecks  [Team Member]
4/9/2011 5:19:28 PM

Originally Posted By Lozza:
Let's just say your guesses are on the money. Bit concerned now that B_R has a similar rifle with no issues.
Give him a call, I'm sure you'll find his customer service second to none

Lozza  [Member]
4/9/2011 5:29:25 PM
As I say I'll try some match ammo through it, if I get similar issues I will definitely give him a call.
Rogue_UK  [Team Member]
4/9/2011 5:34:52 PM
Had the same problem with the first few rounds I put through mine (Prvi) but then the problem just... went away. Not before the gunplumber in question got a panicked phonecall and had to assure me that "just hitting it really hard against something" was not as bad an idea as it sounded at the time

Edit to add: Not the Bodmin-based gunplumber referenced earlier. This was some other guy who trolls these boards occasionally.
Bradders  [Moderator]
4/9/2011 5:43:43 PM
Originally Posted By Lozza:
Let's just say your guesses are on the money. Bit concerned now that B_R has a similar rifle with no issues.


No he doesn't
target-hunter  [Team Member]
4/9/2011 7:05:58 PM
This pretty much sums it up:


The .223 Remington is a sporting cartridge with the same external dimensions as the 5.56x45mm NATO military cartridge. It is loaded with a .224" diameter, jacketed bullet, with weights ranging from 40 up to 90 grains, though the most common loadings by far are 55 grains.

The primary difference between .223 Remington and 5.56 x 45 mm is that .223 is loaded to lower pressures and velocities compared to 5.56 mm. .223 Remington ammunition can be safely fired in a 5.56 mm chambered gun, but the reverse can be an unsafe combination. The additional pressure created by 5.56 mm ammo will frequently cause over-pressure problems such as difficult extraction, flowing brass, or popped primers, but in extreme cases, could damage or destroy the rifle. Chambers cut to .223 Remington specifications have a shorter leade (throat) area as well as slightly shorter headspace dimensions compared to 5.56 mm "military" chamber specs, which contributes to the pressure issues.

While the 5.56 mm and .223 cartridges are very similar, they are not identical. Military cases are made from thicker brass than commercial cases, which reduces the powder capacity (an important consideration for handloaders), and the NATO specification allows a higher chamber pressure. Test barrels made for 5.56mm NATO measure chamber pressure at the case mouth, as opposed to the SAAMI location. This difference accounts for upwards of 20,000+ psi difference in pressure measurements. That means that advertised pressure of 58,000 psi for 5.56mm NATO, is around 78,000 psi tested in .223 Rem test barrels (SAAMI .223 Rem Proof MAP is 78,500 psi so every 5.56mm round fired is a proof load, very dangerous). The 5.56 mm chambering, known as a NATO or mil-spec chambers, have a longer leade, which is the distance between the mouth of the cartridge and the point at which the rifling engages the bullet. The .223 chambering, known as the "SAAMI chamber", is allowed to have a shorter leade, and is only required to be proof tested to the lower SAAMI chamber pressure. To address these issues, various proprietary chambers exist, such as the Wylde chamber or the Armalite chamber, which are designed to handle both 5.56 mm and .223 equally well.

Using commercial .223 cartridges in a 5.56-chambered rifle should work reliably, but generally will not be as accurate as when fired from a .223-chambered gun due to the excessive leade. Using 5.56 mil-spec cartridges (such as the M855) in a .223-chambered rifle can lead to excessive wear and stress on the rifle and even be unsafe, and the SAAMI recommends against the practice. Some commercial rifles marked as ".223 Remington" are in fact suited for 5.56 mm, such as many commercial AR-15 variants and the Ruger Mini-14, but the manufacturer should always be consulted to verify that this is acceptable before attempting it, and signs of excessive pressure (such as flattening or gas staining of the primers) should be looked for in the initial testing with 5.56 mm ammunition.

Badger66  [Team Member]
4/9/2011 7:58:26 PM
Originally Posted By Lozza:
As I say I'll try some match ammo through it, if I get similar issues I will definitely give him a call.


I bet he tells you it's your fault
Lozza  [Member]
4/10/2011 4:56:42 AM
Thanks Target hunter that is a very interesting post/find and as you say pretty much sums it up.

So it looks like the wylde chamber is the way to go to shoot both .223 and 5.56
B_R  [Team Member]
4/10/2011 5:20:28 AM
Originally Posted By rbecks:

Originally Posted By Lozza:
Let's just say your guesses are on the money. Bit concerned now that B_R has a similar rifle with no issues.
Give him a call, I'm sure you'll find his customer service second to none



My customer service department wont be able to help with your chamber. Now, if its a nice 12 bore practical shotgun cartridge belt you need...............................................

Joking aside........my SGC was in 6.8spc - had a Douglas XX barrel if I remember rightly ? Anyway, it had no extraction problems until I used very hot loads. Normal loads were fine.

My current rifle is a Bradders - have put lots of commercial ammo, RG and other milsurp, and homeloads through it without one single jam or hard extraction. I have no idea of the chamber spec ( in fact I was not even aware there was a choice ) but I am happy with it.
Lozza  [Member]
4/10/2011 5:59:34 AM
Misread your earlier post, and assumed yours was the same or similar.

Also that's the thing, I never realised there were all of these different chamber options for the different types of ammo available. This is definitely an education.
Bradders  [Moderator]
4/10/2011 6:17:45 AM
Originally Posted By Lozza:

So it looks like the wylde chamber is the way to go to shoot both .223 and 5.56


No
Lozza  [Member]
4/10/2011 6:22:23 AM
What is then, as according to Target hunters post it says the Sammi is also dangerous when shooting 5.56?
Bradders  [Moderator]
4/10/2011 6:41:48 AM
Originally Posted By Lozza:
What is then, as according to Target hunters post it says the Sammi is also dangerous when shooting 5.56?


In theory that is indeed the case, but in practise no one that I know of has ever seen an issue.

For the last 12-15 years or so, we've all been using surplus 5.56 ammo in a whole host of rifles that have either been chambered in .223 or 5.56, but there are many variants of these and no one knows who has what chamber in their guns.

Wylde is really just an accurised 5.56. I have that reamer but don't use it unless requested. I use a .223 (but I'm not telling you which one) but it's nothing spectacular, it just works.

I think you will find the issue is not in the chamber specs, but in its finish and size.

Yesterday we had our last CSR match of the season and out of 45 shooters, I would say that 40 of those were shooting AR type rifles of various makes and configs.
Ammo used seemed to be RG, Ruag, Dag and various homeloads. I only saw one issue with a gun (and to be fair it was isolated) and that needed a mallet to open it.
He must have been aware of it because he had a rubber mallet to hand and a spare cocking handle (which he needed), and I think that issue arose due to improperly sized reloads
Strangely_Brown  [Team Member]
4/10/2011 7:46:15 AM
Interesting thread!

What advice would be given for somebody about to get an AR and who wanted to reload for it before actually geting his hands on the rifle!?

I was thinking along the lines of a 69Gr SMK over a Remington case, the choice of case was purely based on cost given it will be mainly used for CSR.
I normally use Lapua for 7.62 in my TR rifles but the quantity for CSR is heading me towards a cheaper case.

Thoughts?
limey1  [Team Member]
4/10/2011 7:58:39 AM
How much do your reloads cost you per round & the time taken to assemble your ammo - compare that against factory & milsurp.
Pretty generous scoring zones on CSR, you don't need match quality ammo. What you do need is reliability.
DaddyPig  [Team Member]
4/10/2011 8:01:45 AM
I used to home load all my CSR ammo' but the amounts involved means it's just not fun... even on a Dillon..

Don't bother now as the RUAG milsurp' stuff does me just fine..
Strangely_Brown  [Team Member]
4/10/2011 8:08:54 AM
I enjoy reloading (Redding Boss single stage) and currently make .303 & 7.62, when it comes to .303 I make two versions one of which is a bog standard CSR load using whatever deal the Dutchman at the Trafalgar has.
The other is for a Steyr back position rifle I aquired last year which appears to have a tighter chamber and has taken a while to get to grips with, 174 Gr SMK is my chosen load in this.

Regarding the AR, the intention is to do CSR with it and High Power, I had thought of only doing one load to make life a bit easier...........?
RN-Submariner  [Member]
4/10/2011 8:15:29 AM
Originally Posted By Strangely_Brown:

Regarding the AR, the intention is to do CSR with it and High Power, I had thought of only doing one load to make life a bit easier...........?


Use 77s then.

Bradders  [Moderator]
4/10/2011 8:19:28 AM
Originally Posted By limey1:
How much do your reloads cost you per round & the time taken to assemble your ammo - compare that against factory & milsurp.
Pretty generous scoring zones on CSR, you don't need match quality ammo. What you do need is reliability.


This is why I rarely reload.

I've been shooting 55gn Dag all season because I have a load of it.
To be fair, it's been bloody good for what it is.
Scores at 100-300 yds are comparable with RUAG's finest and given the generosity of fig targets and with the positional shooting we do, can see no advantage with carefully assembled homeloads as scores are very similar and shooters hard to split.

At 400-500yds and 600 yds you will see a difference with the better bullets, but surplus can still do the job nicely at 500 on a fig11.
Yesterday I managed to get all 10 on the centre fig11 at 500. Not the best score with a 2-8, but they were all on.

This is why I choose the easy option these days.
Grab ammo, open box, shoot, discard brass

Simples
Strangely_Brown  [Team Member]
4/10/2011 8:20:09 AM
Originally Posted By RN-Submariner:
Originally Posted By Strangely_Brown:

Regarding the AR, the intention is to do CSR with it and High Power, I had thought of only doing one load to make life a bit easier...........?


Use 77s then.



Roger that!

Bradders  [Moderator]
4/10/2011 8:20:21 AM
Originally Posted By RN-Submariner:
Originally Posted By Strangely_Brown:

Regarding the AR, the intention is to do CSR with it and High Power, I had thought of only doing one load to make life a bit easier...........?


Use 77s then.



This and RL15
Ajayen  [Member]
4/10/2011 9:32:44 AM
My ar was built by mark (bradders) and I asked for a match chamber in 223/5.56.

Not sure how he does it but it feeds anything from RG (09), my homeloads (55-80grn)and .233 factory

must be to do with the lead.

BTW bradders, I am getting sum rifling marks on the mouth of my cases - any ideas plz ?
RN-Submariner  [Member]
4/10/2011 9:33:39 AM
Trim them to length?
Strangely_Brown  [Team Member]
4/10/2011 10:54:40 AM
Which begs the question, do .223 cases require much trimming?
Bradders  [Moderator]
4/10/2011 11:00:53 AM
Originally Posted By Strangely_Brown:
Which begs the question, do .223 cases require much trimming?


They can do after first firing, but it depends how hard you size them.

With a small base die they get worked harder and an excessivly small neck bushing may contribute to it, but that's why God invented the Gracey & Giraud trimmers

AJ, hard to tell without seeing them but it's unlikely they are rifling marks, they might be picking up scratches from the barrel extn lugs
M1154  [Member]
4/10/2011 12:06:30 PM
Whats the pro's and cons for both, the Gracey and the Giraud trimmers.
Have felt the need for one of them for some time.
RN-Submariner  [Member]
4/10/2011 12:36:33 PM
The Gracey is shite compared to the Giraud. Nuff said.
Bradders  [Moderator]
4/10/2011 12:42:09 PM
Originally Posted By RN-Submariner:
The Gracey is shite compared to the Giraud. Nuff said.


More bollocks

Both will hurt your wallet and are only available from the US.

They both offer speed and convenience to trim, chamfer and deburr in one go

You will get a sore finger and thumb
RN-Submariner  [Member]
4/10/2011 12:47:17 PM
Originally Posted By Bradders:
Originally Posted By RN-Submariner:
The Gracey is shite compared to the Giraud. Nuff said.


More bollocks

Both will hurt your wallet and are only available from the US.

They both offer speed and convenience to trim, chamfer and deburr in one go

You will get a sore finger and thumb


NOT BOLLOCKS,

Both will do the job but the Giraud is better and does more than the Gracey. It is more expensive though.

Bradders  [Moderator]
4/10/2011 12:50:24 PM
Originally Posted By RN-Submariner:
Originally Posted By Bradders:
Originally Posted By RN-Submariner:
The Gracey is shite compared to the Giraud. Nuff said.


More bollocks

Both will hurt your wallet and are only available from the US.

They both offer speed and convenience to trim, chamfer and deburr in one go

You will get a sore finger and thumb


NOT BOLLOCKS,

Both will do the job but the Giraud is better and does more than the Gracey. It is more expensive though.



So that makes the Gracey shite?
RN-Submariner  [Member]
4/10/2011 12:55:54 PM
I did not say the Gracey was shite per-se.
M1154  [Member]
4/10/2011 2:13:10 PM
They both do the job,but one's more refined and would last longer??????
Strangely_Brown  [Team Member]
4/10/2011 5:24:14 PM
Originally Posted By RN-Submariner:
Originally Posted By Strangely_Brown:

Regarding the AR, the intention is to do CSR with it and High Power, I had thought of only doing one load to make life a bit easier...........?


Use 77s then.




With or without the cannelure?
Bradders  [Moderator]
4/10/2011 5:43:03 PM
Originally Posted By Strangely_Brown:
Originally Posted By RN-Submariner:
Originally Posted By Strangely_Brown:

Regarding the AR, the intention is to do CSR with it and High Power, I had thought of only doing one load to make life a bit easier...........?


Use 77s then.




With or without the cannelure?


Without
Bus_pass_warrior  [Team Member]
4/10/2011 6:55:28 PM
Originally Posted By Strangely_Brown:
Originally Posted By RN-Submariner:
[quote]Originally Posted By Strangely_Brown:

Regarding the AR, the intention is to do CSR with it and High Power, I had thought of only doing one load to make life a bit easier...........?


Use 77s then.



77's and Accurate AA2520 (cheaper than RL15 and meters better).

and milsurp or 55gn at 100yds, 77's are a waste at that distance.



Bus_pass_warrior  [Team Member]
4/10/2011 7:08:58 PM
Originally Posted By Lozza:
Let's just say your guesses are on the money. Bit concerned now that B_R has a similar rifle with no issues.



My "Bodmin" rifle didn't like RG at all but handled America Eagle 62g without any issues. That rifle has been moved on and its replacement built by a certain gun plumber works fine with everything (apart from some cheap russian lacquered steel cased shite )

Wapinschaw_Shooter  [Team Member]
4/11/2011 2:59:18 AM
Originally Posted By RN-Submariner:
Trim them to length?


Yes, full length sizing and trimming is essential when reloading for an AR type rifle.
Lozza  [Member]
4/11/2011 4:22:20 AM
Originally Posted By Bus_pass_warrior:
Originally Posted By Lozza:
Let's just say your guesses are on the money. Bit concerned now that B_R has a similar rifle with no issues.



My "Bodmin" rifle didn't like RG at all but handled America Eagle 62g without any issues. That rifle has been moved on and its replacement built by a certain gun plumber works fine with everything (apart from some cheap russian lacquered steel cased shite )



Very interesting, thanks