AR15.Com Archives
 Skull & Crossbones AR15 lowers?
Mordak  [Member]
10/23/2007 4:08:36 PM
I am getting ready to start a build and I've seen some lowers with a stamped skull & crossbones on the left side of the lower receiver. Can someone tell me what brand that is? And maybe post a pic or two as I can't find the one's I saw previously. TIA.
DemolitionDamon  [Member]
10/23/2007 4:21:17 PM
Orion-Arms will engrave it.
RainierArms  [Industry Partner]
10/23/2007 4:40:30 PM
SNS has some that way I believe.
Mordak  [Member]
10/23/2007 4:55:13 PM
I know about the engraving but I am looking for the stamping where Bushmaster would have their Snake or Stag Arms would have the Stag Head.
nicholsmf  [Team Member]
10/23/2007 5:06:35 PM
These are Laser etched not engraved but, Spikes has the calico jack so he might be able to do they Skull and Crossbones. Also Anvil Arms seems to be able to do any design you want. It would be on the opposite side of the mag well from their rollmark but it might work for you
Mordak  [Member]
10/23/2007 5:29:28 PM

Originally Posted By nicholsmf:
These are Laser etched not engraved but, Spikes has the calico jack so he might be able to do they Skull and Crossbones. Also Anvil Arms seems to be able to do any design you want. It would be on the opposite side of the mag well from their rollmark but it might work for you


SNS Industries Inc. is the one I was looking for thanks. Here's what I was talkin' 'bout guys.

nicholsmf  [Team Member]
10/23/2007 5:30:41 PM
Glad you found what you were looking for
Mordak  [Member]
10/23/2007 5:44:49 PM
FYI their website is www.snsindustriesinc.com/ Thanks very much for the help guys.
nicholsmf  [Team Member]
10/23/2007 6:12:19 PM
Their standard "star" rollmark looks pretty cool actually
DemolitionDamon  [Member]
10/23/2007 6:21:40 PM
Hey! They're located very close to me. I think I found my source for lowers.
SNS that is. I like the skull and crossbones a lot.
GetGunz  [Member]
10/23/2007 6:37:15 PM
Anybody have one? How is the quality? I like S&CB....
Mordak  [Member]
10/23/2007 6:54:05 PM

Originally Posted By GetGunz:
Anybody have one? How is the quality? I like S&CB....


According to their site they are forged receivers so the quality should be decent. I've seen a few on ARFCOM so I think people use them and seem to happy. I can't do a search further back than 30 days so someone on the "Team" will have to search deeper.
RainierArms  [Industry Partner]
10/23/2007 7:51:37 PM

Originally Posted By Mordak:

Originally Posted By GetGunz:
Anybody have one? How is the quality? I like S&CB....


According to their site they are forged receivers so the quality should be decent. I've seen a few on ARFCOM so I think people use them and seem to happy. I can't do a search further back than 30 days so someone on the "Team" will have to search deeper.


They are made by MEGA machine shop and they do a nice job most of the time.
conndcj  [Member]
10/23/2007 8:47:29 PM
Not to pee in anyone's Cherrios but there is a whole group of us that have the S&CB lower shown. They were part of a group buy on Lightfighter. In the interest of fairness and full disclosure, the S&CB logo was designed by a friend of mine specifically for the group buy. His claim is that it is his intellectual property for which he never signed a release. Others may claim differently and they are certainly entitled to that opinion.

My pics shown below show the lowers exactly as ordered except for additional engraving for this particular lower as it was a gift from LF boardmembers to a fellow member who was wounded in Iraq.

People will argue that the lower pictured above differs from the lower below significantly enough that a claim of violation of intellectual property rights cannot stand. Perhaps it does. Again, you are entitled to that claim. I choose to believe my friend as he has no reason in my mind to believe anything but that the logo belongs to him.

I am not telling you or anyone else what to buy or do. Just wanted people outside the Lightfighter world to know how many of us feel. To be crystal clear, this opinion is solely my own and in no way speaks for Lightfighter or any other member of it.











dport  [Team Member]
10/23/2007 8:56:38 PM
Intellectual property on a skull and cross bones?

VaughnT  [Member]
10/23/2007 9:28:13 PM
The S&CB, when combined with the "Restricted:" and "SHTF" selector marking, form a unique entity that was designed by an individual for a short production run intended only for purchase by those few members of the Lightfighter forum.

SNS Industries has since continued to use this unique design for their own purposes.

This is no different than a maker offering lowers with the AR15.COM logo on the side without requesting permission or offering recompense.

I sat on the sidelines during that particular group buy, and I'm rather glad for it. The way SNS handled the deal, with incredible delays (that always seemed to be someone else's fault) was almost comical.

To see this gent's work used so is, to me, a clear window into the soul of SNS Industries, and I'll do no business with them.

You, of course, are free to choose otherwise.
Bowhntr6pt  [Team Member]
10/23/2007 9:30:29 PM

Originally Posted By dport:
Intellectual property on a skull and cross bones?



+1 Not an original idea...
dport  [Team Member]
10/23/2007 9:39:16 PM

Originally Posted By VaughnT:
The S&CB, when combined with the "Restricted:" and "SHTF" selector marking, form a unique entity that was designed by an individual for a short production run intended only for purchase by those few members of the Lightfighter forum.

SNS Industries has since continued to use this unique design for their own purposes.

This is no different than a maker offering lowers with the AR15.COM logo on the side without requesting permission or offering recompense.

I sat on the sidelines during that particular group buy, and I'm rather glad for it. The way SNS handled the deal, with incredible delays (that always seemed to be someone else's fault) was almost comical.

To see this gent's work used so is, to me, a clear window into the soul of SNS Industries, and I'll do no business with them.

You, of course, are free to choose otherwise.


Maybe IF it contained the exact same markings. However, I think you'd be hard pressed to make that case. The skull and crossed bones date back to at least 1732 and most likely much earlier. The SHTF selector marking has been discussed on this forum a while back IIRC, back when Tom Sawyer was doing custom lowers.
Dorsai  [Member]
10/23/2007 9:57:53 PM
1. The Skull & Crossbones itself is not unique. However, the image had to be tweaked to fit the receiver and the drawing was converted to a file format for use in the CNC engraver by the Lightfighter member. SNS Industries had never used this logo prior to the Lightfighter group buy. He is using the EXACT same image for his own receivers.

2. As part of the group buy, we chose the selector markings of SAFE, FIRE and SHTF. Prior to our group buy, SNS Industries did not engrave a selector marking at the AUTO position and had never used SHTF as a selector marking.

3. We chose to have the caliber marking shown as MULTI. Prior to our group buy, SNS Industries marked their receivers with the specific caliber marking, not MULTI.

4. As part of our inside joke, the reverse side of the magwell was engraved, "RESTRICTED: MEGAFORCE USE ONLY." That was never used on any other receivers by anyone prior to our group buy.

Since then, SNS Industries has used all of those features on their receivers, changing only the model number, and the serial numbers of course.

While the use of a S&CB, SHTF selector marking and MULTI caliber marking are not unique in and of themselves, the use of this particular S&CB image, plus the other markings together is a violation of intellectual property rights.
naloxone  [Member]
10/23/2007 9:59:45 PM
The only thing changed from the LF lowers was the model numbering and serial numbering. While each individual marking may be public domain (certainly nobody is claiming to have originally arranged a skull over crossed bones), the combination shown was designed by one guy for a finite number of lowers.

Perhaps SNS changed it enough to get around copyright law, but it's still shady to have done it without so much as asking permission, which I imagine likely would have been granted save the Restricted marking.

And as I recall, many of the rear takedown pin holes were out of spec as well.

There are lots of great dealers and manufacturers out there. I personally now rank SNS a hair above Botach in the CS department, and only that because they did, eventually, deliver a product.
dport  [Team Member]
10/23/2007 10:04:17 PM

Originally Posted By naloxone:
The only thing changed from the LF lowers was the model numbering and serial numbering. While each individual marking may be public domain (certainly nobody is claiming to have originally arranged a skull over crossed bones), the combination shown was designed by one guy for a finite number of lowers.


This I can buy. Like I said the SHTF markings had been discussed here. So had the skull and crossed bones. As for the previous poster's claim about chaging the file format and the dimensions, well that won't fly for an image that has been around for 300 or more years.
Dorsai  [Member]
10/23/2007 10:09:40 PM
Dport. It will when he didn't use his own image, but used the image that was provided by another. And like I said, when it was used in a unique combination of elements.
Hoplophile  [Team Member]
10/23/2007 10:12:57 PM

Originally Posted By dport:
Maybe IF it contained the exact same markings. However, I think you'd be hard pressed to make that case. The skull and crossed bones date back to at least 1732 and most likely much earlier.

The pirate logo is not original. "Model ARRR-15" and "Safe-Semi-SHTF" are original. Combining all three is definitely original.


The SHTF selector marking has been discussed on this forum a while back IIRC, back when Tom Sawyer was doing custom lowers.

The LF design was finalized about the time that TS was first getting known on this forum. With the number of people who are members of both forums I'm sure the SHTF marking was mentioned over here soon after the design first appeared over there, but that doesn't change where it originated.
Mordak  [Member]
10/23/2007 10:35:31 PM
Sorry I didn't mean to stir up a hornets nest over this guys. My apologies.
dport  [Team Member]
10/23/2007 10:38:40 PM

Originally Posted By Hoplophile:

Originally Posted By dport:
Maybe IF it contained the exact same markings. However, I think you'd be hard pressed to make that case. The skull and crossed bones date back to at least 1732 and most likely much earlier.

The pirate logo is not original. "Model ARRR-15" and "Safe-Semi-SHTF" are original. Combining all three is definitely original.

Tis why I said what I said in red.
VaughnT  [Member]
10/23/2007 10:53:54 PM
Mordak, no need to apologize. This type of open, mature discussion is why this forum is here.

You asked about a particular lower and received feedback accordingly. While I'm sure the lower you purchase will be of suitable quality, there has been a valid suggestion of impropriety on the part of the maker. Now, you get to make a fully-informed decision.

Personally, I'd buy yet another Stag lower and sleep well.
conndcj  [Member]
10/23/2007 11:05:22 PM

Originally Posted By Mordak:
Sorry I didn't mean to stir up a hornets nest over this guys. My apologies.


Hey bro,

You did nothing wrong. Just a discussion. If anyone should apologize, it's me. No doubt it's a cool logo. That's why all of us over there got them.

Tell you what. If you want a Stag lower, let me know. I can have one sent from my FFL to yours for a VERY good deal. Living in CT has some advantages. Least I can do.
Mordak  [Member]
10/24/2007 5:46:42 AM

Originally Posted By VaughnT:
Mordak, no need to apologize. This type of open, mature discussion is why this forum is here.

You asked about a particular lower and received feedback accordingly. While I'm sure the lower you purchase will be of suitable quality, there has been a valid suggestion of impropriety on the part of the maker. Now, you get to make a fully-informed decision.

Personally, I'd buy yet another Stag lower and sleep well.

Funny you should mention Stag. That was my original choice and I'm going back to that after all this talk.
Black-Tiger  [Team Member]
10/24/2007 6:09:24 AM

Originally Posted By conndcj:




Slap one of these on your gear and you are good to go.



DEEDS, NOT WORDS!

dzhitshard  [Member]
10/24/2007 11:00:01 AM
ugggg, I shudder at the thought of pics of my rig being used in this thread.

Though I'd rather have someone spit on my class A's than give up even the lower, I've got nothing good to say about SNS industries underhanded practices nor the quality of their lower receivers.


As to the particular S&CB image, yes it was shipped with a copyrighted watermark. THAT particular design was hand drawn & turned into media.

KevinB  [Team Member]
10/24/2007 11:36:13 AM
DZ -- I feel for you bro.

I'd lock it up if I could - but I dont have powers here.
dport  [Team Member]
10/24/2007 11:52:02 AM

Originally Posted By dzhitshard:



As to the particular S&CB image, yes it was shipped with a copyrighted watermark. THAT particular design was hand drawn & turned into media.


You were awarded a copyright for the image or the entire design?
El_Abogado  [Team Member]
10/24/2007 11:55:38 AM

Originally Posted By Dorsai:
1. The Skull & Crossbones itself is not unique. However, the image had to be tweaked to fit the receiver and the drawing was converted to a file format for use in the CNC engraver by the Lightfighter member. SNS Industries had never used this logo prior to the Lightfighter group buy. He is using the EXACT same image for his own receivers.

2. As part of the group buy, we chose the selector markings of SAFE, FIRE and SHTF. Prior to our group buy, SNS Industries did not engrave a selector marking at the AUTO position and had never used SHTF as a selector marking.

3. We chose to have the caliber marking shown as MULTI. Prior to our group buy, SNS Industries marked their receivers with the specific caliber marking, not MULTI.

4. As part of our inside joke, the reverse side of the magwell was engraved, "RESTRICTED: MEGAFORCE USE ONLY." That was never used on any other receivers by anyone prior to our group buy.

Since then, SNS Industries has used all of those features on their receivers, changing only the model number, and the serial numbers of course.

While the use of a S&CB, SHTF selector marking and MULTI caliber marking are not unique in and of themselves, the use of this particular S&CB image, plus the other markings together is a violation of intellectual property rights.


+1. Amazing what a bunch of non-lawyers think around here. Very uncool of SNS. . . .

El_Abogado  [Team Member]
10/24/2007 11:56:42 AM

Originally Posted By dport:

Originally Posted By dzhitshard:



As to the particular S&CB image, yes it was shipped with a copyrighted watermark. THAT particular design was hand drawn & turned into media.


You were awarded a copyright for the image or the entire design?


You don't need to be "awarded" anything for federal copyright laws to protection your intellectual property. This is most uncool. . . .
dport  [Team Member]
10/24/2007 12:00:12 PM

Originally Posted By El_Abogado:

Originally Posted By dport:

Originally Posted By dzhitshard:

As to the particular S&CB image, yes it was shipped with a copyrighted watermark. THAT particular design was hand drawn & turned into media.


You were awarded a copyright for the image or the entire design?


You don't need to be "awarded" anything for federal copyright laws to protection your intellectual property. This is most uncool. . . .

I agree it's uncool, but how do you claim ownership of an image that has been around for hundreds of years?

ETA: And yes I got the copyright registration confused.
PCR-00  [Team Member]
10/24/2007 1:25:06 PM
Cool logo or not. I know of a lot of people in the WA HTF that aren't big fans of SnS due to personality conflict or business dealings. That being said, there is nothing physically wrong with his product.
Boomer  [Member]
10/24/2007 1:44:09 PM

Originally Posted By PCR-00:
Cool logo or not. I know of a lot of people in the WA HTF that aren't big fans of SnS due to personality conflict or business dealings. That being said, there is nothing physically wrong with his product.


And there are just as many who think he's an okay guy who was mistreated by a few members with excessive sand in their manginas.

I personally would not have a problem buying an SNS product.

This thread is particularly hillarious given that ALL of these aftermarket companies have basically been leaching off of Colt's intellectual property for years but no one seems to give a damn about that.
PCR-00  [Team Member]
10/24/2007 1:48:09 PM

Originally Posted By Boomer:

Originally Posted By PCR-00:
Cool logo or not. I know of a lot of people in the WA HTF that aren't big fans of SnS due to personality conflict or business dealings. That being said, there is nothing physically wrong with his product.


And there are just as many who think he's an okay guy


No disagreement there.
FYRARMS  [Team Member]
10/24/2007 3:01:45 PM
I want one! A lower made by Mega with a skull and crossbones on it? What's not to love?
militarymoron  [Member]
10/24/2007 3:34:47 PM

Originally Posted By dport:
I agree it's uncool, but how do you claim ownership of an image that has been around for hundreds of years?

that exact image used on the receiver has not been around for hundreds of years.
it's a new interpretation of an old image. and that artist's interpretation of an existing concept or image is still an original piece of work, and the artist owns the intellectual property rights to his artwork. just like photographers own the rights to their images.

it's like reproducing, printing and selling thomas kinkade's paintings without his permission and justifying it by saying that paintings of landscapes and cottages have been around for hundreds of years.
dport  [Team Member]
10/24/2007 4:16:23 PM

Originally Posted By militarymoron:

Originally Posted By dport:
I agree it's uncool, but how do you claim ownership of an image that has been around for hundreds of years?

that exact image used on the receiver has not been around for hundreds of years.
it's a new interpretation of an old image. and that artist's interpretation of an existing concept or image is still an original piece of work, and the artist owns the intellectual property rights to his artwork. just like photographers own the rights to their images.

it's like reproducing, printing and selling thomas kinkade's paintings without his permission and justifying it by saying that paintings of landscapes and cottages have been around for hundreds of years.


I understand your point.

Derivative work and all that.

Like I said, it's uncool. It's something I wouldn't do personally, legal or not.
VaughnT  [Member]
10/24/2007 8:43:39 PM
How come I say the same thing as Dorsai, in fewer words, but he's getting all the accolades?

I said the same dang thing!

WTF????
dport  [Team Member]
10/24/2007 9:06:52 PM

Originally Posted By VaughnT:
How come I say the same thing as Dorsai, in fewer words, but he's getting all the accolades?

I said the same dang thing!


WTF????

It's the Internet, there is no telling why. Sometimes the wording just so happens to fit someone else's style just a tad bit better.
El_Abogado  [Team Member]
10/24/2007 9:39:13 PM

Originally Posted By VaughnT:
How come I say the same thing as Dorsai, in fewer words, but he's getting all the accolades?

I said the same dang thing!

WTF????


These things happen, brother.
Stickman  [Industry Partner]
10/24/2007 9:54:31 PM

Originally Posted By VaughnT:
How come I say the same thing as Dorsai, in fewer words, but he's getting all the accolades?

I said the same dang thing!

WTF????



Unlawful use of images is theft no matter who says it. The more people that understand it the better, and like MM commented, its a matter of intellectual property rights.

Courts have ruled on this sort of issue, and while there can be a gray area, use for profit isn't even close to being one of those gray areas.



DoctorCheney223  [Team Member]
10/24/2007 10:13:42 PM

Originally Posted By VaughnT:
How come I say the same thing as Dorsai, in fewer words, but he's getting all the accolades?

I said the same dang thing!

WTF????




That reminds of the commercial with the employee that gives a great idea but nobody hears him and the boss says the exact same thing but moves his hands when saying it and every body loves the boss' idea. Too funny bro!

thanks,
Ron
VaughnT  [Member]
10/24/2007 10:41:01 PM
I remember that commercial, Doc!

Too right, sadly....
BlackRifleJihad  [Team Member]
10/25/2007 1:19:10 AM
Hmmm...this reminds me of the "bolt" symbol I drew up in 2002 and has been my avatar since, now it's the "official" AR15.com logo. I should have had it trade marked! But I'm not bitter
dzhitshard  [Member]
10/25/2007 12:59:07 PM

Originally Posted By BlackRifleJihad:
Hmmm...this reminds me of the "bolt" symbol I drew up in 2002 and has been my avatar since, now it's the "official" AR15.com logo. I should have had it trade marked! But I'm not bitter



Well gippidy goo for you. I guess you didn't do it as a professional, for commission & for a "limited" product run? Thought so.
Some people are a little dense.
dport  [Team Member]
10/25/2007 1:36:06 PM

Originally Posted By BlackRifleJihad:
Hmmm...this reminds me of the "bolt" symbol I drew up in 2002 and has been my avatar since, now it's the "official" AR15.com logo. I should have had it trade marked! But I'm not bitter

Technically, you do have a copyright on it.
AcidGambit  [Member]
10/26/2007 12:48:55 AM
Copyright, no copyright, etc... SNS is low class for taking a design a consumer brought to them, contracted them to make, and then making it for the open market after fill the original idea/contract.

In fact, in my Business Ethics class... SNS would get a big giant:



While SNS may sell a few S&CB lowers... Who would now allow them to make a run of lowers with a certain design? Knowing it may be stolen in the future.