AR15.Com Archives
 Young's Manufacturing Doesn't Stake their gas keys?
AllAmerican2000  [Member]
7/15/2010 8:52:50 AM EST
I just traded for an SPR upper that included a Young's Manufacturing Phosphate finish bolt carrier. The bolt came from WOA as it was matched to the barrel. I was a little suprised to find upon inspection that the gas key was not staked. I went back and looked on their website, and none of their bolt carriers are staked. I had been looking previously at them on Rainer Arm's website, and they show them all staked. No biggie, just a little suprised.

Carry on
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c5hardtop  [Member]
7/15/2010 9:01:34 AM EST
Originally Posted By AllAmerican2000:
I just traded for an SPR upper that included a Young's Manufacturing Phosphate finish bolt carrier. The bolt came from WOA as it was matched to the barrel. I was a little suprised to find upon inspection that the gas key was not staked. I went back and looked on their website, and none of their bolt carriers are staked. I had been looking previously at them on Rainer Arm's website, and they show them all staked. No biggie, just a little suprised.

Carry on


Has been brought up multple times but here is quick summary. Young does not think its needed. Young claims it voids warranty. Young has a letter posted on their website about this. Rainer, Denny's ,etc stake the ones they sale themselves. They are probably OK for most poeple, but its probably BETTER if they are staked. I have a couple from Denny's that are no longer offered, Denny's bolt components that were staked on Young M16 Chrome carriers (they were only $131 at the time, so a good deal also). As a buyer you have a choice, buy from Young, some of the general parts companies, etc if you want unstaked, buy rainer, denny's, etc if you want staked. In your case you can leave it as is, follow a staking guide here yourself, or mail off if you think its needed.

putiton11  [Member]
7/15/2010 9:02:12 AM EST
when i built mine it just used a little blue loctite never had any problems
Engineer5  [Team Member]
7/15/2010 9:09:05 AM EST
Here's from YM website..........


Staking the gas key on the AR-15 and M-16 carrier.

There has been a lot of talk about the pros and cons of staking the gas key on the carrier. Here is our opinion and why Young Manufacturing will not stake keys. We have been making carriers since 1991. The US Mil Spec. assembly drawing requires the carrier key to be staked. Contrary to some popular opinions staking does not “SEAL” the gas key. Staking keeps the screws from backing out Period. If you do not properly torque the screws to 56 inch pounds you will be staking a screw that is loose or one that is over torqued and prone to breakage. We have seen plenty of staked screws that are loose or broken. The Mil Spec. also calls for the gas key bottom surface to be “SEALED” with Permatex gasket sealer. Something no one does to our knowledge. Here is our procedure for installing a gas key. First clean the oil from the gas key and the mating surface on the carrier. Then clean the oil from the screw threads. We use break cleaner for this. Next use a very light coating of Permatex high strength thread locker gel on the bottom of the key. PN 27010. This is much easier to use than the Permatex gasket sealer. It comes in a plastic twist dispenser. Make sure you don’t use so much that it squishes into the gas port hole. The cure rate is 60 minutes. Next coat the screw threads with the same gel. Install the key and torque the screws to 56 inch pounds. Should you decide to remove the key for some reason don’t use the old screws when you put the key back on! You will most likely break them during installation or when you fire the rifle. Go to the local hardware store and buy new 10-32 x ¼” SHCS. If you feel the need to stake the screws spend the money and get one of the staking tools from Brownell that uses a screw type system to swedge the material into the top of the screw. Don’t use a hammer and a punch! You can stretch the thread on the screw and now you have a loose screw that will eventually break if the gun even fires. We will not warrantee a carrier with a staked key no matter who staked it. You will be charged for a new key and any labor required to remove broken screws.

Good Shooting!

Daniel H Young
President
AllAmerican2000  [Member]
7/15/2010 9:12:14 AM EST
Good to know thanks for posting that.
stuch77  [Member]
7/15/2010 9:16:43 AM EST
Originally Posted By putiton11:
when i built mine it just used a little blue loctite never had any problems


i used red and never had a problem either. but spikes and other builders say loctite doesn't hold.
par3  [Member]
7/15/2010 9:30:24 AM EST
I thought that blue looses it's strength at a much lower temperature than red.
gargamel  [Member]
7/15/2010 9:39:07 AM EST
Seriously, has anyone had the their non-staked screws back out? Let alone with red loctite with properly torqued screws? I'll wait for a reply for 1st person experience and not some third person info.
c5hardtop  [Member]
7/15/2010 10:04:17 AM EST
Originally Posted By gargamel:
Seriously, has anyone had the their non-staked screws back out? Let alone with red loctite with properly torqued screws? I'll wait for a reply for 1st person experience and not some third person info.


Its rare but it happens... which was of course the reason they started getting staked. Even if it happens chances are pretty low it make it to this post, 99% of ARs are not ran hard and only so many people will even view this thread.

Bubbaguns  [Team Member]
7/15/2010 10:57:24 AM EST
Originally Posted By Engineer5:
Here's from YM website..........


Staking the gas key on the AR-15 and M-16 carrier.

There has been a lot of talk about the pros and cons of staking the gas key on the carrier. Here is our opinion and why Young Manufacturing will not stake keys. We have been making carriers since 1991. The US Mil Spec. assembly drawing requires the carrier key to be staked. Contrary to some popular opinions staking does not “SEAL” the gas key. Staking keeps the screws from backing out Period. If you do not properly torque the screws to 56 inch pounds you will be staking a screw that is loose or one that is over torqued and prone to breakage. We have seen plenty of staked screws that are loose or broken. The Mil Spec. also calls for the gas key bottom surface to be “SEALED” with Permatex gasket sealer. Something no one does to our knowledge. Here is our procedure for installing a gas key. First clean the oil from the gas key and the mating surface on the carrier. Then clean the oil from the screw threads. We use break cleaner for this. Next use a very light coating of Permatex high strength thread locker gel on the bottom of the key. PN 27010. This is much easier to use than the Permatex gasket sealer. It comes in a plastic twist dispenser. Make sure you don’t use so much that it squishes into the gas port hole. The cure rate is 60 minutes. Next coat the screw threads with the same gel. Install the key and torque the screws to 56 inch pounds. Should you decide to remove the key for some reason don’t use the old screws when you put the key back on! You will most likely break them during installation or when you fire the rifle. Go to the local hardware store and buy new 10-32 x ¼” SHCS. If you feel the need to stake the screws spend the money and get one of the staking tools from Brownell that uses a screw type system to swedge the material into the top of the screw. Don’t use a hammer and a punch! You can stretch the thread on the screw and now you have a loose screw that will eventually break if the gun even fires. We will not warrantee a carrier with a staked key no matter who staked it. You will be charged for a new key and any labor required to remove broken screws.

Good Shooting!

Daniel H Young
President


Says not to use a hammer a punch. The Marine Corp TM tells you to use a hammer and punch. I use this method on all of mine and nothing has broken.
AllAmerican2000  [Member]
7/15/2010 11:03:10 AM EST
This bolt is going to be used on a precision SPR rifle. It is not going to be run hard. Going against what I have learned on ARFCOM, I am inclined to just leave it.
9divdoc  [Team Member]
7/15/2010 11:44:45 AM EST
I have a few Young's properly staked with both MOAX & punch and hammer.....

Better yet ....



Bravo Company Ion Bond BCG
rychencop  [Team Member]
7/15/2010 11:47:33 AM EST
9divdoc  [Team Member]
7/15/2010 11:49:57 AM EST


Even a well beaten dead horse should get somewhat easier to chew on...
paulosantos  [Member]
7/15/2010 11:59:28 AM EST
The Military wanted the Carriers staked because they were afraid that guys were going to unscrew them and take them off, which would be a huge problem. I went to the Colt Armorer school last year and the instructor said that the YM procedure is absolutely good to go. The key is the Permatex high strength thread locker gel and the proper torque. To me, staking is just added insurance.
baxsom  [Member]
7/15/2010 12:05:07 PM EST
Originally Posted By paulosantos:
The Military wanted the Carriers staked because they were afraid that guys were going to unscrew them and take them off, which would be a huge problem. I went to the Colt Armorer school last year and the instructor said that the YM procedure is absolutely good to go. The key is the Permatex high strength thread locker gel and the proper torque. To me, staking is just added insurance.


I was told the same thing in 98 when I went to the school. Not necessary, just a redundent precaution. When I build a new bolt carrier for an M4 I use a drop of red loctite and hammer and punch.
CTbuilder1  [Team Member]
7/15/2010 12:09:16 PM EST
Originally Posted By gargamel:
Seriously, has anyone had the their non-staked screws back out? Let alone with red loctite with properly torqued screws? I'll wait for a reply for 1st person experience and not some third person info.


Fits person info is good for certain things and bad for others. If you have first person info about a product and your sample size is one or two, how good is that info really? If you have consensus built upon from a wide sample size that info becomes much better. There is a reason the M16/M4 TDP specifies carrier key staking and castle nut staking. There is a reason there is a certain standard that these rifles SHOULD be built to but often aren't.

Case in point. You have two rifles - One is a Blackthorne and one is a Colt. You have problems with the Colt but have never had problems with the Blackthorne. In your first person experience you would believe the Blackthorne to be a better rifle. Extend the sample size, which would include getting 2nd and 3rd person experience and data, and you would see that your first person experience is not indicative of reality overall.
rychencop  [Team Member]
7/15/2010 12:09:24 PM EST
Originally Posted By 9divdoc:


Even a well beaten dead horse should get somewhat easier to chew on...


lol...i'm just tired of the same dead horse every other week.
putiton11  [Member]
7/15/2010 12:49:39 PM EST
Originally Posted By stuch77:
Originally Posted By putiton11:
when i built mine it just used a little blue loctite never had any problems


i used red and never had a problem either. but spikes and other builders say loctite doesn't hold.


after 5000+ rounds i beg to differ with spikes and other builders
InfiniteGrim  [Team Member]
7/15/2010 1:57:12 PM EST
Originally Posted By putiton11:
Originally Posted By stuch77:
Originally Posted By putiton11:
when i built mine it just used a little blue loctite never had any problems


i used red and never had a problem either. but spikes and other builders say loctite doesn't hold.


after 5000+ rounds i beg to differ with spikes and other builders


Agreed.
par3  [Member]
7/15/2010 1:58:51 PM EST
I think its a fair question/response:

has anyone had their screws become loose (in the AR sense!).
chibajoe  [Team Member]
7/15/2010 2:20:39 PM EST
Originally Posted By par3:
I think its a fair question/response:

has anyone had their screws become loose (in the AR sense!).


In 5 years, dozens of ARs, and I don't know how many thousands of rounds of ammo, I can only remember one carrier that had the screws come loose (in a Model 1 Sales upper). I didn't have a punch and hammer handy, so I torqued them back down and used red loc-tite and as far as I know, the rifle is still going strong. Like a lot of things on civilian ARs, I'm sure that staking isn't necessary, but it doesn't hurt either, and I guess the peace of mind is worth the 20 seconds with a hammer and punch.
rychencop  [Team Member]
7/15/2010 2:47:37 PM EST
but non-staked is not Milspec.
CTbuilder1  [Team Member]
7/15/2010 2:53:19 PM EST
Originally Posted By rychencop:
but non-staked is not Milspec.


Nor is it specified in the TDP.

Once again, obvious confusion between milspecs and TDP.
rychencop  [Team Member]
7/15/2010 2:54:41 PM EST
Originally Posted By CTbuilder1:
Originally Posted By rychencop:
but non-staked is not Milspec.


Nor is it specified in the TDP.

Once again, obvious confusion between milspecs and TDP.


lol...i was actually poking fun at the whole Milspec crap.
SamColt  [Team Member]
7/15/2010 3:07:24 PM EST
YM high speed nm bcg
3.5 K rounds many of them run hot in VTAC classes
I check the torque once in a while and they haven't moved

That's one mans first person account FWIW
Russ4777  [Team Member]
7/15/2010 4:03:50 PM EST
People make way too big a deal over this staking issue. I have 5 bolt carriers (Smith, Young, & Baer) none of which are staked and all have at least 3000 rounds over them. Never once has a key screw come loose.
KILLERB6  [Team Member]
7/15/2010 7:42:16 PM EST
Originally Posted By gargamel:
Seriously, has anyone had the their non-staked screws back out? Let alone with red loctite with properly torqued screws? I'll wait for a reply for 1st person experience and not some third person info.


That doesn't matter! It's not "Mil-Spec" [nor TDP for those who DO know what that is]...and therefore no good!

EDIT.
badazzar15  [Industry Partner]
7/15/2010 8:32:24 PM EST
Originally Posted By stuch77:
Originally Posted By putiton11:
when i built mine it just used a little blue loctite never had any problems


i used red and never had a problem either. but spikes and other builders say loctite doesn't hold.


Loctite will fail under heavy use and high temp, that's a fact. Sometimes it will hold and other times it won't hold. If it doesn't work all of the time then what good is it?
NCHornet  [Member]
7/16/2010 2:51:49 AM EST
There is a old saying " Better safe than Sorry" and I believe it fits perfect when it comes to staking do's and don'ts.
JustKeepSwimming  [Member]
7/16/2010 3:36:27 AM EST
The flip side of the question is - Has anyone ever had a failure of a carrier key screw that was staked? YM's position is that you make the screw more likely to fail by whacking it.

If they're right, X.XX% of AR shooters should be reporting failures of staked screws and the concept of staking to be "better safe than sorry" might oughta be replaced with "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."

Or "don't break it."
BB  [Member]
7/16/2010 4:12:32 AM EST
How many of you build mechanical stuff that, if in the event of a screw backing out, could cause serious injury or death? Now, how many of those screws have you seen staked in place?
rychencop  [Team Member]
7/16/2010 4:21:59 AM EST
Originally Posted By BB:
How many of you build mechanical stuff that, if in the event of a screw backing out, could cause serious injury or death? Now, how many of those screws have you seen staked in place?


i don't think the issue has ever been operator safety. it's a reliability issue. at the same time though not many can say they ever had a gas key come loose due to being unstaked. i'll stick with BCM for my bcg's though or any other well made "staked" bcg. i like the better safe than sorry theory.
BB  [Member]
7/16/2010 4:28:47 AM EST
Originally Posted By rychencop:
Originally Posted By BB:
How many of you build mechanical stuff that, if in the event of a screw backing out, could cause serious injury or death? Now, how many of those screws have you seen staked in place?


i don't think the issue has ever been operator safety. it's a reliability issue. at the same time though not many can say they ever had a gas key come loose due to being unstaked. i'll stick with BCM for my bcg's though or any other well made "staked" bcg. i like the better safe than sorry theory.


That wasnt the point; it was how often do you see critical screws staked outside the .mil?
Spitfire75  [Team Member]
7/16/2010 5:06:36 AM EST
Originally Posted By gargamel:
Seriously, has anyone had the their non-staked screws back out? Let alone with red loctite with properly torqued screws? I'll wait for a reply for 1st person experience and not some third person info.


I had top-staked gas key screws back out on me after about 5 or 6 thousand rounds of casual shooting, over the course of about 3 or 4 years. I started experiencing FTEs after every round I fired and after inspecting the gas key screws, I found that they were almost loose enough to turn with my finger. I don't have a MACKS tool so I replaced the entire carrier with a BCM carrier. If I ever pick up a MOACKS or if I ever get a chance to use one, I'll re-stake my old gas key and keep that carrier as a spare.
swatbwana  [Member]
7/16/2010 5:15:57 AM EST
Well when I raced Motocross I used to wire down all my case bolts because they were known to vibrate loose and so did many of the guys I raced with soo yes peopld that need things to not come apart do stake bolts..
And I have a run of the mill chromed Young BCG that came staked directly from them soo they have some explaining to do...
polymorpheous  [Member]
7/16/2010 5:24:12 AM EST
i like all of the guys that say that staking is over rated.
i guess staking the castle nut is over rated too!

seriously, you may not run into a problem if you fire 100 rounds a year out of your AR.
but if you fire it say 200-300 rounds a weekend, or take a class or 2 a year, this is where you will see a problem.
hard use is where problems like these arise.
BB  [Member]
7/16/2010 5:25:28 AM EST
Originally Posted By swatbwana:
Well when I raced Motocross I used to wire down all my case bolts because they were known to vibrate loose and so did many of the guys I raced with soo yes peopld that need things to not come apart do stake bolts..
And I have a run of the mill chromed Young BCG that came staked directly from them soo they have some explaining to do...


Wire tie does not equal bolt stake. My bike has some wire tied stuff too, but I've never seen a bolt staked.
BB  [Member]
7/16/2010 5:38:34 AM EST
Originally Posted By polymorpheous:
i like all of the guys that say that staking is over rated.
i guess staking the castle nut is over rated too!

seriously, you may not run into a problem if you fire 100 rounds a year out of your AR.
but if you fire it say 200-300 rounds a weekend, or take a class or 2 a year, this is where you will see a problem.
hard use is where problems like these arise.


So you've seen this problem first hand in the classes you've taken, or the round counts youve racked up on your rifle?
swatbwana  [Member]
7/16/2010 5:49:01 AM EST
Originally Posted By BB:
Originally Posted By swatbwana:
Well when I raced Motocross I used to wire down all my case bolts because they were known to vibrate loose and so did many of the guys I raced with soo yes peopld that need things to not come apart do stake bolts..
And I have a run of the mill chromed Young BCG that came staked directly from them soo they have some explaining to do...


Wire tie does not equal bolt stake. My bike has some wire tied stuff too, but I've never seen a bolt staked.


It does the same thing, there is nothing to stake the case bolts to thats why you wire tie them, plus with all the rebuilds I did its easy to snip the wires and rewire a few times a year. Staking is the same thing insurance and it works better than luck.

I have seen 5 to date non staked carriers lock up guns in classes I see about 100 guns a year, it's always the guy that bought the gun a week before class and has no idea how to field strip it. I keep an assortment of properly sized allen head screws in my vehicle along with a punch, they are easy to fix once you get the gun open. Bushmaster had a problem years ago with undersized allen head bolts on their carrierswe found many during cleaningthat were in the process of working loose and could be tightened a full or half turn.

look at a good carrier, BCM LMT COLT then look at a model 1 sales or doublestar, you will most likely see a difference in the hardware used to secure the key..the allen heads will be noticably smaller on the other bolt carriers.


There is a reason quality costs more, small things like attention to fasteners and extra manufacturing steps add up in the end product.

No your doublestar is not a Colt, you can make it servicable but it never had the small parts quality from the begining so don't be a hater there is a reason you paid less.
polymorpheous  [Member]
7/16/2010 5:55:49 AM EST
Originally Posted By BB:
So you've seen this problem first hand in the classes you've taken, or the round counts youve racked up on your rifle?


no, because i have a BCM BCG.
i don't need to worry they will back out.
i don't teach classes as i'm just an average joe.
ask instructors like pat rogers or greg sullivan or travis haley how many keys they've seen work loose.


there is a REASON the key needs to be staked.
i've never seen a car running a red light get into an accident.... so it can't happen right?
you see how your logic is flawed?

now that i'm done feeding the trolls...


BB  [Member]
7/16/2010 6:01:15 AM EST
Originally Posted By polymorpheous:
Originally Posted By BB:
So you've seen this problem first hand in the classes you've taken, or the round counts youve racked up on your rifle?


no, because i have a BCM BCG.
i don't need to worry they will back out.
i don't teach classes as i'm just an average joe.
ask instructors like pat rogers or greg sullivan or travis haley how many keys they've seen work loose.


there is a REASON the key needs to be staked.
i've never seen a car running a red light get into an accident.... so it can't happen right?
you see how your logic is flawed?

now that i'm done feeding the trolls...




Just wondering if you had first hand expereince in what you were posting, or if you were repeating something you read/heard is all.
swatbwana  [Member]
7/16/2010 6:04:49 AM EST
Originally Posted By BB:
Originally Posted By polymorpheous:
i like all of the guys that say that staking is over rated.
i guess staking the castle nut is over rated too!

seriously, you may not run into a problem if you fire 100 rounds a year out of your AR.
but if you fire it say 200-300 rounds a weekend, or take a class or 2 a year, this is where you will see a problem.
hard use is where problems like these arise.


So you've seen this problem first hand in the classes you've taken, or the round counts youve racked up on your rifle?


I have and it will *&^k you if you are using the gun in an actual fight you will be dead.. because when it works loose and jams up your gun you can't un&^%k it fast enough.
Why take the chance, of those I have seen lock up a gun and or work loose and be fixed prior to screwing up the gun NONE were properly staked, and some had bolt heads that were noticably undersized (bushmaster was notorious for this years ago, they may have fixed it).. Lets see 5 minutes of your time to have them properly staked or countless hours defending the non staking of these components on the internet... Give me the 5 minute insurance policy .
rychencop  [Team Member]
7/16/2010 6:07:20 AM EST
Originally Posted By BB:
Originally Posted By rychencop:
Originally Posted By BB:
How many of you build mechanical stuff that, if in the event of a screw backing out, could cause serious injury or death? Now, how many of those screws have you seen staked in place?


i don't think the issue has ever been operator safety. it's a reliability issue. at the same time though not many can say they ever had a gas key come loose due to being unstaked. i'll stick with BCM for my bcg's though or any other well made "staked" bcg. i like the better safe than sorry theory.


That wasnt the point; it was how often do you see critical screws staked outside the .mil?


sorry...but since you said "could cause serious injury or death?" i figured that was your point.
IMO a mechanical means of securing a fastener will always trump a liquid means. of course staking is not practical for many applications, but it is very practical for a gas key.
BB  [Member]
7/16/2010 6:10:38 AM EST
Originally Posted By swatbwana:
Originally Posted By BB:
Originally Posted By swatbwana:
Well when I raced Motocross I used to wire down all my case bolts because they were known to vibrate loose and so did many of the guys I raced with soo yes peopld that need things to not come apart do stake bolts..
And I have a run of the mill chromed Young BCG that came staked directly from them soo they have some explaining to do...


Wire tie does not equal bolt stake. My bike has some wire tied stuff too, but I've never seen a bolt staked.


It does the same thing, there is nothing to stake the case bolts to thats why you wire tie them, plus with all the rebuilds I did its easy to snip the wires and rewire a few times a year. Staking is the same thing insurance and it works better than luck.

I have seen 5 to date non staked carriers lock up guns in classes I see about 100 guns a year, it's always the guy that bought the gun a week before class and has no idea how to field strip it. I keep an assortment of properly sized allen head screws in my vehicle along with a punch, they are easy to fix once you get the gun open. Bushmaster had a problem years ago with undersized allen head bolts on their carrierswe found many during cleaningthat were in the process of working loose and could be tightened a full or half turn.

look at a good carrier, BCM LMT COLT then look at a model 1 sales or doublestar, you will most likely see a difference in the hardware used to secure the key..the allen heads will be noticably smaller on the other bolt carriers.


There is a reason quality costs more, small things like attention to fasteners and extra manufacturing steps add up in the end product.

No your doublestar is not a Colt, you can make it servicable but it never had the small parts quality from the begining so don't be a hater there is a reason you paid less.


I'm not saying staking is or is not a valid form of making sure the bolt doesnt back out, I was asking how often you see that method of securing bolts outside of the .mil; I think staking is a good way to secure your shit, but I'm also of the opinion that theres other ways to do it that are just as secure if not more secure. Just curious as I've worked on everything from motorcycles to 25mm cannons to airplanes, and theres only a few specifc places I've seen staked bolts.
rychencop  [Team Member]
7/16/2010 6:16:51 AM EST
Originally Posted By BB:
Originally Posted By swatbwana:
Originally Posted By BB:
Originally Posted By swatbwana:
Well when I raced Motocross I used to wire down all my case bolts because they were known to vibrate loose and so did many of the guys I raced with soo yes peopld that need things to not come apart do stake bolts..
And I have a run of the mill chromed Young BCG that came staked directly from them soo they have some explaining to do...


Wire tie does not equal bolt stake. My bike has some wire tied stuff too, but I've never seen a bolt staked.


It does the same thing, there is nothing to stake the case bolts to thats why you wire tie them, plus with all the rebuilds I did its easy to snip the wires and rewire a few times a year. Staking is the same thing insurance and it works better than luck.

I have seen 5 to date non staked carriers lock up guns in classes I see about 100 guns a year, it's always the guy that bought the gun a week before class and has no idea how to field strip it. I keep an assortment of properly sized allen head screws in my vehicle along with a punch, they are easy to fix once you get the gun open. Bushmaster had a problem years ago with undersized allen head bolts on their carrierswe found many during cleaningthat were in the process of working loose and could be tightened a full or half turn.

look at a good carrier, BCM LMT COLT then look at a model 1 sales or doublestar, you will most likely see a difference in the hardware used to secure the key..the allen heads will be noticably smaller on the other bolt carriers.


There is a reason quality costs more, small things like attention to fasteners and extra manufacturing steps add up in the end product.

No your doublestar is not a Colt, you can make it servicable but it never had the small parts quality from the begining so don't be a hater there is a reason you paid less.


I'm not saying staking is or is not a valid form of making sure the bolt doesnt back out, I was asking how often you see that method of securing bolts outside of the .mil; I think staking is a good way to secure your shit, but I'm also of the opinion that theres other ways to do it that are just as secure if not more secure.


of course there are other ways of doing it, but you have to take into account the stress and heat generated (big difference between plinking at the range on semi auto and being in a fire fight using full) when it comes to the gas key. i know i don't want to rely on loctite in that environment. and obviously they stake castle nuts because they have come loose at some point. i don't get into the whole milspec thing, but some things just makes sense.
par3  [Member]
7/16/2010 6:18:59 AM EST
"I've worked on everything from motorcycles to 25mm cannons to airplanes, and theres only a few specifc places I've seen staked bolts."

Isn't this exactly the point ... staking is important where it is needed.
SuzookKING  [Member]
7/16/2010 6:39:05 AM EST
Originally Posted By BB:
Originally Posted By swatbwana:
Well when I raced Motocross I used to wire down all my case bolts because they were known to vibrate loose and so did many of the guys I raced with soo yes peopld that need things to not come apart do stake bolts..
And I have a run of the mill chromed Young BCG that came staked directly from them soo they have some explaining to do...


Wire tie does not equal bolt stake. My bike has some wire tied stuff too, but I've never seen a bolt staked.





Ever looked at the end of an axle on a FWD car, the nuts are either staked or have a cotter pin on em some even have both. Staking of nuts is just another way to to keep fasteners from backing out such as safety wiring on race vehicles and cotter pins/split pins. Different stituations call for different remedies to securely keep the fastener in place.
I'll stick to my staked units and be happy 'bout it
CTbuilder1  [Team Member]
7/16/2010 2:59:29 PM EST
Originally Posted By BB:
Originally Posted By polymorpheous:
i like all of the guys that say that staking is over rated.
i guess staking the castle nut is over rated too!

seriously, you may not run into a problem if you fire 100 rounds a year out of your AR.
but if you fire it say 200-300 rounds a weekend, or take a class or 2 a year, this is where you will see a problem.
hard use is where problems like these arise.


So you've seen this problem first hand in the classes you've taken, or the round counts youve racked up on your rifle?


I have seen an unstaked castle nut back out on my rifle. Luckily I had a wrench and kept an eye on it. (first hand)

I have seen someone elses castle nut back out during a class. This incident caused movement in the RE deadlining the gun. (second hand)

I have seen several account in AARs over on lightfighter.net documenting castle nuts backing out and some deadlining the guns. (third hand)
Pain  [Team Member]
7/16/2010 3:09:17 PM EST
Originally Posted By JustKeepSwimming:
The flip side of the question is - Has anyone ever had a failure of a carrier key screw that was staked? ."


My new RRA rifle with 600-800 rounds thru it. While cleaning it, I checked the tightness of the screws. The screws were loose. We all know RRA staking job are not the best, and mine was not staked deeply at all.

I snugged them up and reached for a chisel. I don't think they will move now.
gargamel  [Member]
7/16/2010 3:37:30 PM EST
Lets put it this way, has any screws that they themselves intalled/torqued on a bolt carrier (specifically with red loctite) ever work itself loose? I am not talking about something new you bought and you assumed was done right. This also includes a castle nut you installed. I have put blue loctite on the castle nut I put together. If aything it is torqued well enough that it requires a little elbow grease. The same applies to my bolt carrier I used red loctitie.

Far form being scientific, it is difficult to conclude that any non-staked method are prone to problems on that alone when you still have to factor in if it was put right in the 1st place when you bought it. Factor in QC. If you know what you are doing, the beauty to putting it together yourself is that you a higher probabilty you did it right vs. assuming some guy at the factory took the time to torgue it right. At times, shit happens and that may the exception and not always the rule.

Might as well stake it and be done with it. If you do it yourself, you also support my "do it yourself to make sure it was done right by the user" approach as mentioned above.
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