AR15.Com Archives
 NEW POF ORDER POLICY!!! EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY!!! MUST READ!!!
oef24  [Member]
2/17/2009 7:09:35 PM EST
I just received a call from Felix from AVGUNS.COM and he told me to visit POF's website (www.pof-usa.com).
I cannot believe that POF is now REQUIRING old and new customers to give them a 50% deposit. If you have a rifle on order with POF and didn't give them any money but received an expected ship date, you can forget it. You have to call them and give them 50% upfront in order to "secure" your purchase. So I guess POF expects to receive a large influx of cash to be able to purchase these facilities in order to reduce the backorder. Does the 50% deposit on our guns come with stocks in POF or any profit sharing since the customers are the ones financing the production? Felix from AVGUNS.COM has over $3.5 million dollars in backorders with POF right now. Does POF expect him to wire $1.75 million to guarantee his orders that date back almost 2 years? He just shared his disbelief with me a few moments ago and I am sharing some of his thoughts. He has been a loyal dealer for almost 5 years and this is how POF is repaying him and all the other dealers out there. The first paragraph at POF-USA.com pretty much sums it up. Frank DeSomma clearly states that the reason POF is going to charge 50% upfront is to purchase more raw materials and tooling (investment) and because the open market is yielding large profits for resellers, which he does not profit from and would like to (GREED). With the tremendous increase in sales, why would anybody want to charge their customers upfront for something they cannot guarantee? POF has a huge backlog of orders and they need more money? Should POF care what their rifles are selling for in the open market? I think they should be very happy that they are (and maybe soon to be were) in demand and bringing in top dollar to the fortunate people that can get one. POF should worry when their rifles are not selling. If everything them manufacture is sold before it ships now, what is the problem? Re-invest your profits and grow. It is a very good problem to have when you have backorders that are 2 years old. I don't see Ferrari ramping up production because all their cars are sold before they are build. Furthermore, I don't see any other manufacturer of any product worried that their product is being re-sold in the open market for higher margins. POF is receiving what they ask for their product and can't keep up with the demand. This move to charge 50% upfront is a sure way to get rid of that backorder problem. I think GREED is getting the better of Frank DeSomma.
What about loyalty? Loyalty to the dealers like AVGUNS.COM who have marketed and promoted POF products for years. Now POF wants to cut them and other dealers out of the picture. How about all the customers that have been waiting months for their P-308 only to find out that they need to come up with half to have a shot at possibly getting their hands on one? Sure, POF has the right to conduct business however they want but is it morally and ethically correct?
We do not know how long we will have the opportunity to purchase our beloved firearms. We do not know what tomorrow will bring. Can you trust one company with your money in the hopes of one day in the future receiving what you ordered? Too many factors can come into play like parts availability. POF doesn't manufacture every single part in their rifles. If some of the components are not available or go to another manufacturer for more money, you will not receive your rifle until those parts are sourced. What is POF's financial stability? Maybe before you give POF 50% upfront for a rifle, they should give you a copy of their financials, 3 months bank statements and a personal guarantee that your money is secure.
I look forward to hearing from all of you. If you think it is good business or not, share your thoughts and let us know how soon you receive your order. If you are outraged, share your thougts and let us know what you are going to buy now instead of a POF. If you are really steaming, give Frank DeSomma a call on his cell at xxx-xxx-xxxx edited ~ 82nd.[
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Remman  [Team Member]
2/17/2009 7:15:28 PM EST
You're kidding me right? Cliff notes?
ErikBloodaxe  [Member]
2/17/2009 7:28:14 PM EST
That's really unfortunate.
Thefryzone  [Team Member]
2/17/2009 7:46:36 PM EST
The ponzi scheme
Arbiter  [Team Member]
2/17/2009 7:59:25 PM EST
I guess I'll be pulling my orders.

Don't really need them, anyways.

-Arbiter
n0zzle  [Member]
2/18/2009 2:44:05 AM EST
I really don't see the problem.

Yes, you are giving them an interest free loan, but you are getting a quality piece of art in return.

Cash flow is what makes, or breaks a business.
B44T  [Team Member]
2/18/2009 3:36:45 AM EST
The beginning of the end,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
coldair  [Team Member]
2/18/2009 3:53:59 AM EST
it would stop the dumbazzes that order stuff knowing its a 8 week wait then canceling their order after 2 weeks because they are tired of waiting.
apricotshot  [Team Member]
2/18/2009 4:00:03 AM EST
I've had POF's in the past. I recently sold my last upper from them. While I like their gas system above all they're competition, I believe their products always lacked certain quality control. There "Specs" leave a lot to be desired. Most people who buy them usually have a issue with the upper or the lower. I know I did. Once I got them working it was fine. But paying so much money to get a potential lemon is very disconcerting. I wish POF the best, but I'm done with them.

Also Felix is one of the biggest over charging characters in FL. He's putting POFs on Gun Broker for twice the MSRP. Come to think of it, if he has back orders 2 years old, why is he selling POF rifles on GB in the first place?
USSA-1  [Member]
2/18/2009 5:22:34 AM EST
Requiring a 50% up front deposit is not a new thing. Many custom gunsmiths require a deposit prior to building starting a project.

Whether or not this is a good business decision remains to be seen, but it's not like this is a new thing.

USSA-1
lonewolfgun  [Member]
2/18/2009 6:00:09 AM EST
Well I understand the 50% thing and it does suck for those who have alot of rifles on order, But on the positive side if most of those who purchased that many cancel half or more of there order I suspect that I will be receiving my order that much faster

Now I just hope that they keep the same price that I ordered it at.
Tallyho74  [Member]
2/18/2009 9:01:14 AM EST
The following is the new policy for anyone who hasn't read it. One thing for sure it's caused. This has to be about the most traffic on this forum for a while!

To our Valued Customers,

POF-USA has experienced unprecedented growth in the past 12 months and in particular, since November 2008. POF-USA is committed to producing a custom, high quality rifle, despite high demand and sharp increases in production. In order to do this, we are growing our production capacity by purchasing high end machining centers and raw material stock. These efforts will hopefully catch up our back orders and reduce delivery time by weeks or months in some cases. We are acutely aware of the prices our rifles are selling for on the open market. Our prices for 2009 only increased by 4%, but it is a simple case of supply and demand. In order for our customers to be assured they receive their rifle at a fair price and in a timely manner, we are having to change the way we do business.

Beginning immediately, all new orders and all pre-existing orders will require a 50% deposit. We understand this may cause some inconvenience, but it is nonetheless necessary in order to build our infrastructure and ensure delivery in a timely manner.

All of our existing orders will take precedence. We will make contact by email or telephone to all of our existing customers to verify they are willing to keep their order in place under this policy. We completely understand there will be cases where customers are not able or willing to conform with this change of policy. Hopefully, after the bulk of the orders are filled, we will have product available for those who want to pay in full for product that is in stock and ready to ship.

The upside to our policy change will be expedited delivery. With the increase in manufacturing capacity, our delivery time will be dramatically reduced. The initial ramp up will take time, but once in place, orders should be delivered within 14 weeks or less, starting with the oldest orders first. We have developed a new sales website, www.pofsales.com, to help us reduce our high volume of phone calls so we can spend more time building and shipping your product. Please visit this site and register as a dealer, or a retail customer, to receive newsletters and sales information. We will still be here to answers phones and technical questions, but all orders will be placed through this site whether via internet or phone.

We are committed to building a truly custom magazine fed rifle with all USA made raw materials, parts and especially USA labor. We appreciate your patronage and understanding.

Frank DeSomma
President, POF-USA



shooter545  [Member]
2/18/2009 9:47:01 AM EST
I really don't see the issue. Calling Frank Desomma GREEDY, is ridiculous. Are Wilson Combat, Les Baer, ROBAR, JP Rifles, etc GREEDY? They are custom gun builders and all charge 50% deposit. POF builds custom guns. They use Rock Creek and LW blanks, turn their barrels, machine their own upper and lower receivers, use custom triggers and the list goes on. If you can't afford a deposit, why are you ordering a custom rifle that sells for up to $2500? Does the original poster of this thread want to publicly call the respected gun builders named above greedy to their face? I think that the writer is AV guns and I doubt his facts and figures are correct. If you are a dealer and have many guns on order, you must have a business. Stocking your store cost money last I checked and right now magazine rifles are highly sought after. If the guns were in stock and ready to ship, can AV write a check for the 3.5 million that he placed on order? I doubt it, so who is BSing who.

I did go to his site and saw that he heavily advertises POF and charges more than anybody for the product. Far above retail as a starting bid on Gunbroker. Who is greedy here? It's okay to charge a customer a $1000 to $1500 above retail, but in the same breath call Frank DeSomma Greedy? Sounds like he just wants to control the market and play on peoples' fear of a gun ban. If giving a deposit to POF, like I have done for other custom guns, will insure delivery at fair retail price, I am for it.

I would suggest that readers of this thread do a little background on the players and make an informed decision. POF prices are better than most all of their competitors (custom built magazine fed rifles / piston operation) and they build a better product. They make mistakes, but so does everyone else in the gun business. They probably should have taken deposits from the start and thus would have ended this stupidity before it started.

To all of you who are jumping ship or claiming to, good luck. Call one of the other high end gun builders, get on their list and see what they tell you. If you are really in a hurry, you can always go to your local gun store and pay $1500 or higher for a standard gas impingement gun just like they made in 1960.

And BTW, placing Mr. Desomma's cell phone in the post was very low class. Kudos to the moderator for pulling it immediately.


Tallyho74  [Member]
2/18/2009 10:12:47 AM EST
I would have to agree with shooter. I paid in full when I ordered from my FFL. The price that AV guns is charging is almost 1500 more then what I paid. I think alot of these dealers are feeding this frenzy of an impending doom gun ban scenario. In reality, this policy should help the company meet the need of it's paying customers in a much more efficient manner.
apricotshot  [Team Member]
2/18/2009 10:13:37 AM EST
I have a question. What happens, no matter who you place a deposit with, "if" a AWB is signed into law? Are you out $1000? Where does that leave POF's investment in infrastructure? I've learned my lesson long ago. Never give someone money upfront.

I still like POF rifles. In time, after all this Obama madness is over with. I hope to see them turning out high quality products delivered. Without a rushed quality control operation I know they cannot help due to a lack of facilities.
66427vette  [Member]
2/18/2009 11:24:59 AM EST
the are nuts.
prionic1  [Member]
2/18/2009 12:47:04 PM EST
I second shooter's opinion and posting someones personal number is shameful.
n0zzle  [Member]
2/18/2009 1:09:22 PM EST
Originally Posted By apricotshot:
I have a question. What happens, no matter who you place a deposit with, "if" a AWB is signed into law? Are you out $1000? Where does that leave POF's investment in infrastructure? I've learned my lesson long ago. Never give someone money upfront.


It's a contract. If they don't deliver the goods, you get your money back.

apricotshot  [Team Member]
2/18/2009 2:29:17 PM EST
Originally Posted By n0zzle:
Originally Posted By apricotshot:
I have a question. What happens, no matter who you place a deposit with, "if" a AWB is signed into law? Are you out $1000? Where does that leave POF's investment in infrastructure? I've learned my lesson long ago. Never give someone money upfront.


It's a contract. If they don't deliver the goods, you get your money back.



Where is it in writing? Did I miss it?
kat1950  [Team Member]
2/18/2009 3:49:47 PM EST
To all you newbies Frank has posted his cell number on this site on numerous occasions since 2005, when there was a real problem. I might have in the pass given up on 50 per cent up front when they were a quality custom shop using the best manufactures for certain parts for their rifles, my 8, 2004 and 2005 POFs are excellent, got rid of all my new ones, quality control on assembly labor has gone way down, its always the same thing start with quality and as you grow, cheap out , give some glitz like Robar that really serves no purpose other than a sales tool, and cheap out on important parts. All you new people have drank the Koolaide, After all the only reason POF took off back in 2004 was the mass public could not buy the HK 416. In the past 5 years there are some really good piston uppers out there besides the HK 416, LWRC are excellent, and ADC is serious quality with a little help from Larry Vickers who was instrumental in the development of the Hk 416, to the owner of ADC,its a winner, it stacks up to my HK 416 and maybe a little better with the improvements made over the HK 416.
66427vette  [Member]
2/18/2009 3:51:15 PM EST
think i am going to cancel my orders that are pending and sell of the current ones i have . no way am i coughing up cash now for guns i and my customers have been waiting for eleven months now. i have talked to chris every month for last 4 months and the answer is the same all the time " you have 70 guns ahead of you should ship at the end of month my friend thanks for your patience" so i guess they have made no 16 inch 308' in last four months. i f you want any new in box 223 recons pm me going back to sig 556"s and my hk"s. i used to be a huge pof fan. i am done with the pof hype . kind of strange peoplre ordering uppers at retail prices and getting them in 3 months and dealers have been waiting almost 9 months pretty clear what is going on there.
fxntime  [Team Member]
2/18/2009 4:26:21 PM EST
Originally Posted By n0zzle:
Originally Posted By apricotshot:
I have a question. What happens, no matter who you place a deposit with, "if" a AWB is signed into law? Are you out $1000? Where does that leave POF's investment in infrastructure? I've learned my lesson long ago. Never give someone money upfront.


It's a contract. If they don't deliver the goods, you get your money back.



Gee, it's not like that always happens, right? Not going to go either way on this but with a long wait time, handing over a large chunk of money isn't smart business sense. With brisk business, a company shouldn't have any problem raising capital to purchase parts or additional machinery.

kat1950  [Team Member]
2/18/2009 4:49:30 PM EST
What would all you people do if POF went bankrupt, I guess loose your money, or get back 3 cents on a dollar from a bankruptcy court, if there is anything left. Oh and buy the way Les Baer, Ed Brown, Bill Wilson and Nighthawk never charged me anything until my weapons were complete and ready to ship, and everybody at SHOT show on an order bills when ready to ship. Its not like these are custom weapons, they are all standard as per catalog,
apricotshot  [Team Member]
2/18/2009 5:28:17 PM EST
Originally Posted By kat1950:
What would all you people do if POF went bankrupt, I guess loose your money, or get back 3 cents on a dollar from a bankruptcy court, if there is anything left. Oh and buy the way Les Baer, Ed Brown, Bill Wilson and Nighthawk never charged me anything until my weapons were complete and ready to ship, and everybody at SHOT show on an order bills when ready to ship. Its not like these are custom weapons, they are all standard as per catalog,


+1
Viking6  [Member]
2/18/2009 6:25:53 PM EST
Being an owner of Wilsons, Les Baers and POF's, I have to say I don't mind paying a deposit for a quality product. I just bought another POF .308 and gladly paid my dues for fast delivery. For all of you that say the owner (Frank?) is Greedy, what would you do if he delivered all of your $3.5 million worth of guns at once? How can you justify ordering products that you don't have the money to pay for? It sounds to me like you are the greedy one, trying to leverage discounts offered for large orders that you know you cannot afford? I would think that if you cannot afford the product that you have on order that paying 1/2 up front makes you place a realistic order and allows the manufacturer to accurately guage the amount of raw materials he actually needs. This also allows you to split up your payments, making it easier to buy more guns and still receive a fair discount. As far as POF greed, I just do not see it. They are not raising prices, they are just asking you to put some skin in the game. Dell computer requires you to pay for ALL of your order before they put the first screwdriver to your computer. I think you had your bluff called and are scrambling for what little dignity you have left.

My $.02, This is still somewhat a capitalist country. You still have every cent of your money and POF still has their guns to sell to someone who is serious about owning a quality firearm. You are no worse off than you were the day before you placed your orders. Why make such a fuss?
fxntime  [Team Member]
2/18/2009 6:42:16 PM EST
Originally Posted By Viking6:
Being an owner of Wilsons, Les Baers and POF's, I have to say I don't mind paying a deposit for a quality product. I just bought another POF .308 and gladly paid my dues for fast delivery. For all of you that say the owner (Frank?) is Greedy, what would you do if he delivered all of your $3.5 million worth of guns at once? How can you justify ordering products that you don't have the money to pay for? It sounds to me like you are the greedy one, trying to leverage discounts offered for large orders that you know you cannot afford? I would think that if you cannot afford the product that you have on order that paying 1/2 up front makes you place a realistic order and allows the manufacturer to accurately guage the amount of raw materials he actually needs. This also allows you to split up your payments, making it easier to buy more guns and still receive a fair discount. As far as POF greed, I just do not see it. They are not raising prices, they are just asking you to put some skin in the game. Dell computer requires you to pay for ALL of your order before they put the first screwdriver to your computer. I think you had your bluff called and are scrambling for what little dignity you have left.

My $.02, This is still somewhat a capitalist country. You still have every cent of your money and POF still has their guns to sell to someone who is serious about owning a quality firearm. You are no worse off than you were the day before you placed your orders. Why make such a fuss?


????? If I buy a car, I don't hand over the cash until I get the car, same for almost all products made. One usually does not hand over a large chunk of money and wait months to years for production goods. I'm not calling anyone greedy, just saying that one had better be prepared to lose said "deposit" no matter what product you order from whatever company you wish to name.

It would be different if they had them in stock or ready to ship in a week or so but I do not believe that is the case due to the wait times.

As much as I hate to say it, the gun industry has more then their share of stinkers and It's one of the industries I'd be loath to hand over a large chunk of money for a long term delivery date. Some of the artisians of the industry with a long wait period and an impeccable history of handwork and exclusivity [the 1911 market for instance] I can understand, the rest, not so much.

I've read my share of disasters here on companies going bad and screwing over customers who lose $$$$.

MrBeretta  [Member]
2/18/2009 6:45:03 PM EST
Originally Posted By apricotshot:
"Also Felix is one of the biggest over charging characters in FL. He's putting POFs on Gun Broker for twice the MSRP."


Yeah, I've been looking to get one over the past few months but are kinda looking elsewhere now because of all the probs that I hear about. I was actually looking at them on gunbroker from avguns a few days before the election and saw the one I liked for about $1900. The day after elections I emailed and asked if he had that model still available and he said yeah but not at that price anymore. I was looking at $2200. I dont understand the price gouging from people before anything even happens. Kinda shi**y.
Manny2_0  [Member]
2/18/2009 10:34:20 PM EST
I really like their weapons, but the waits are just tooooo long for a 50% deposit. That is a crap load of $, I think 20-25% is more app. to ensure that buyers are serious.

That said I will not be getting a 223 from them specifically because of the wait, however I will unfortunately call my dealer to give him the Money for the P308 ,,,, to me that one has the got to have it factor written all over it......

On a side note nothing has been said about, the issues with the 415 eatting themselves up,, they had time to justify their reasons for the deposit's but did not post on the threads eatting themselves.... To me personally this is much more important than the deposits
paddymurphy  [Team Member]
2/19/2009 12:25:16 AM EST
Originally Posted By n0zzle:
I really don't see the problem.

Yes, you are giving them an interest free loan, but you are getting a quality piece of art in return.

Cash flow is what makes, or breaks a business.


Well, if you know that going in I can agree with you. If you ordered the product and they accepted the order then turn around and tell you oh ya its been on back order for 6 months but if ya want it send me money. That is fucked up. I don't care if your selling a pussy that stays virgin forever, no products quality justifies that kind of horse shit.

Maybe they should have stopped taking back orders a year ago until they got caught up? Or grandfather pre-existing orders.
paddymurphy  [Team Member]
2/19/2009 12:34:23 AM EST
Originally Posted By shooter545:
I really don't see the issue. Calling Frank Desomma GREEDYWell i will not make that callwithout more info but I will say ––––->, is ridiculous. Are Wilson Combat, Les Baer, ROBAR, JP Rifles, etc GREEDY? They are custom gun builders and all charge 50% deposit.The difference is they tell you this when you place an order not months to years later. Big difference. POF builds custom guns. They use Rock Creek and LW blanks, turn their barrels, machine their own upper and lower receivers, use custom triggers and the list goes on. If you can't afford a deposit, why are you ordering a custom rifle that sells for up to $2500? Does the original poster of this thread want to publicly call the respected gun builders named above greedy to their face? I think that the writer is AV guns and I doubt his facts and figures are correct. If you are a dealer and have many guns on order, you must have a business. Stocking your store cost money last I checked and right now magazine rifles are highly sought after. If the guns were in stock and ready to ship, can AV write a check for the 3.5 million that he placed on order? I doubt it, so who is BSing who.

I did go to his site and saw that he heavily advertises POF and charges more than anybody for the product. Far above retail as a starting bid on Gunbroker. Who is greedy here? It's okay to charge a customer a $1000 to $1500 above retail, but in the same breath call Frank DeSomma Greedy? Sounds like he just wants to control the market and play on peoples' fear of a gun ban. If giving a deposit to POF, like I have done for other custom guns, will insure delivery at fair retail price, I am for it.

I would suggest that readers of this thread do a little background on the players and make an informed decision. POF prices are better than most all of their competitors (custom built magazine fed rifles / piston operation) and they build a better product. They make mistakes, but so does everyone else in the gun business. They probably should have taken deposits from the start and thus would have ended this stupidity before it started.

To all of you who are jumping ship or claiming to, good luck. Call one of the other high end gun builders, get on their list and see what they tell you. If you are really in a hurry, you can always go to your local gun store and pay $1500 or higher for a standard gas impingement gun just like they made in 1960.

And BTW, placing Mr. Desomma's cell phone in the post was very low class. Kudos to the moderator for pulling it immediately. This I agree with even if it has been posted before.




I have no dog in this fight. Don't have a gun on order. however, the part in green is why I will never do business with POF customers made orders that were accepted by the business. Now the business has even more demand. So instead of taking a small business loan (for whatever reason) or stopping taking back orders until caught up, or beginning to require a deposit for new orders, they tell the consumer you know that gun you ordered a year ago? Pony up half the cost and we will send it to you, eventually. Don't know when. But it will be sooner than if you do not give me an interest free loan so I don't have to go to the bank.

Also I love the line our business is growing. News flash. Your back order list was growing not your business. Your business grows when you increase capacity. Not when you take more back orders you can't fill and tell people you made an agreement with months before we are changing the rules.
paddymurphy  [Team Member]
2/19/2009 12:37:26 AM EST
Originally Posted By n0zzle:
Originally Posted By apricotshot:
I have a question. What happens, no matter who you place a deposit with, "if" a AWB is signed into law? Are you out $1000? Where does that leave POF's investment in infrastructure? I've learned my lesson long ago. Never give someone money upfront.


It's a contract. If they don't deliver the goods, you get your money back.




IF the money is in the bank you get it back. If they want to give it to you without a legal battle you get it all back. If it is sunk into new building new machines raw materials etc well, it really fucking sucks to be you. You might get a fraction back after a long legal battle and/or bankruptcy.
n0zzle  [Member]
2/19/2009 1:48:36 AM EST
Two years ago I ordered an upper and sent a USP MO for the amount, it took eight months to get the upper. It's your money, so do as you please with it.

Also understand that the whole world is experiencing a credit crunch. And if this moves frees up capital, and helps them to produce more how is that a bad thing?
apricotshot  [Team Member]
2/19/2009 2:32:20 AM EST
Originally Posted By n0zzle:
Two years ago I ordered an upper and sent a USP MO for the amount, it took eight months to get the upper. It's your money, so do as you please with it.

Also understand that the whole world is experiencing a credit crunch. And if this moves frees up capital, and helps them to produce more how is that a bad thing?


One possible scenario that is likely is the institution of a AWB. Then you are truly fucked. If a bank is looking to give a loan and the business shows the bank 5,000(?) back orders at let's say an average of $2000 a pop. It may be enough to convince them to lend the money. Of course the bank also may realize that at any moment a left wing bill may be passed leaving the bank out in the cold.
abpt1  [Team Member]
2/19/2009 2:48:37 AM EST
Yeah I am going to pass ............50% thanks
paintparty  [Member]
2/19/2009 10:50:18 AM EST
To whom it may concern first , Iwill stand up for the whats right when there is wrong , But to call Frank greedy is nothing but trash talk BY COWARDS AND NON-THINKERS.Frank would give the shirt off his back and has offered help to other gun mfg. There are a few people out there that understand its not greed / Its business .
FrankSL  [Team Member]
2/19/2009 11:07:46 AM EST
Originally Posted By apricotshot:
Also Felix is one of the biggest over charging characters in FL. He's putting POFs on Gun Broker for twice the MSRP. Come to think of it, if he has back orders 2 years old, why is he selling POF rifles on GB in the first place?


I called Felix once and that was enough for me. YMMV.

Frank DeSomma- most people would be somewhat gun-shy about putting 50% down with a relatively "niche" vendor. If the upper/rifle were completely custom made for that user, and unsaleable to any other user, I'd understand 50%. What happens if the company goes belly-up between order and the actual delivery? Just a couple of points to consider. Thanks.




66427vette  [Member]
2/19/2009 11:53:16 AM EST
so when are the new hk ' s 223 and 308 out .
apricotshot  [Team Member]
2/19/2009 1:28:47 PM EST
Originally Posted By 66427vette:
so when are the new hk ' s 223 and 308 out .


I think you are better off waiting for POF in that regard.
66427vette  [Member]
2/19/2009 1:48:08 PM EST
already have three pofs and they are all for sale. canceled the other 3 today.
kat1950  [Team Member]
2/19/2009 1:56:37 PM EST
Just sold the rest of mine today, that HK 416 is supposed to be out to public by fall, down side is you have to buy the whole rifle, upper is not compatible with AR lowers, but I will believe it when I see it. Just picked up 1 more HK 416, 14.5 upper today after POF sale.

Copy and Paste link below on pictures of US designated HK rifles.

http://www.hkpro.com/documents/HK-MR-RIFLES-011409.pdf
apricotshot  [Team Member]
2/19/2009 2:04:09 PM EST
You know, to be honest. After having had a gas piston gun, besides the cleaning aspect, I really didn't see any great improvement over my direct gas guns. Unless you run full auto ( and suppressed, which I did, and really was a vast improvement), a piston is kind of just a nice to have kind of thing. The gas system is just one part of the whole "reliablity" problem. Like extractor, mags....the list goes on.
Mach2Nick  [Team Member]
2/19/2009 2:42:08 PM EST
If this is true and my dealer calls me up and says he needs 50% for the rifle I have on order then it will have to be cancelled.
Sorry but it is what it is. I don't like to gamble on something I really want but can live without.
I wouldn't have a problem if this policy was pre-existing when I ordered.
For those who think it isn't a problem...how would you like your AWB? Grandfathered or retroactive?
Hasn't POF been swamped for years? They are just now realizing they need to expand?


Nick
SeanK1ng  [Member]
2/19/2009 5:03:13 PM EST
I can really see both sides of this.

I've been to Frank's shop.....they make just about EVERYTHING there except for the bbl blanks from Mike Rock. They cut, flute, thread, etc in-house....in addition to making the upper and lower receiver, rails, bolts, etc. Yes, the stocks, buffer tubes, springs, and trigger groups (and stuff like that) are bought elsewhere, but it's about as completely in-house as anyone in the industry.

On the one hand, we (the consumer) have sorta brought this on ourselves. Why? B/c many of us are placing orders for stuff just to 'get in line'. This 50% deposit will put a halt to that.....if you're serious, you'll plunk down the change or....you'll go through a distributor that has it in stock. Having lead times of 24 months is now not uncommon post election for many AR vendors.....and that is simply ridiculous from the business's as well as the customers' standpoints....but I think the reason why is all this 'get in line' order placing that's going on.

On the other, if there's an AWB, you could end up screwed and lose your deposit money....which is why I'd also cancel my order if in that position. I just couldn't afford to lose that much coin. These times are just too uncertain in terms of weapon availability. Unfortunately, what it means is that if you really wanted a POF for a reasonable price, you should have bought before the election. If you waited too long, you'll be paying the "panic premium".

JMO,
Sean
paintparty  [Member]
2/20/2009 2:55:36 AM EST
I know that when you go into a gun shop to order a gun ,They charge you a deposit to place your order if the gun isnt in stock ,So why are all these people crying about a deposit , Maybe they shouldnt be ordering the guns in the first place if they cant afford a deposit . A deposit is to ensure that you will get your product in a timely manner , its not greed either . Grow up people . POF has a great product . A proud owner of POF rifles.
El-cid  [Member]
2/20/2009 3:33:39 AM EST
If there is one thing I have learned in firearms collecting is never give a deposit. I have been down that road before and it's not fun. If it is not in stock then I pass. That is why I can't stand these dealers/retailers that give you the impression something is in stock when its really backordered.

Swamp_Rat_Shooter  [Team Member]
2/20/2009 8:30:20 AM EST
I do not see the issue. A lot of dealers out there collect 50% or 100% of the money up front to order a firearm. so no another manufacturer is doing it, POF is not the first on to do this, and will not be the last.

Last time I checked, some of the larger CNC machines cost $250K and up and when I spoke with some of the POF guys at shot, they are going to be getting a FEW more machines.

I know a couple barrel manufacturers that require 50% deposit on your barrel order (wether it is a finished barrel or just a rifled blank) when you place it and the other 50% when the are ready to ship it.

I would guess the bring Raw material by the pallet. that gets expensive. so all this is money they have to put out before the rifle is ever done........

Maybe this will also cut out the dealers that order 10, 20, 50 or 100 rifles at a time. I bet this is part why there is such a long delay.

Calling POF Greedy is bullshit. if they were being greedy, they would double there prices. they have not. they raised them what, $100 over last year. if you are not happy about it, that is fine. spend an extra $1000 to $1500 more and buy it on the secondary market.

Also, Banks are REALLY tight with lending money right now for one thing and also remember that banks don't tend to like lending money to firearm manufacturers. it is a royal pain and about impossible to get a bank loan as a firearms manufacturer....they think it is to much risk.
apricotshot  [Team Member]
2/20/2009 9:45:29 AM EST
I agree calling them greedy is dumb. But it is bad business. The reason a local shop wants 50% down before they order it is in most cases the gun in question is in stock at the distributor. They just don't want to be stuck with it in case the buyer backs out. Kinda like here in the EE at times, huh. Most all gun shops order their firearms from distributors remember. They can call and see if a gun is in stock. When it is they take a deposit, if not the total price of the gun. This just a way POF is getting some upfront money to retool and purchase more raw materials and machines. Just like Frank said. God bless him, but I'm not a bank. Even a bank wouldn't give anyone in the gun industry a large loan right now, considering the political climate.
Swamp_Rat_Shooter  [Team Member]
2/20/2009 10:49:01 AM EST
It is not just right now. banks have always taken a hands off approach to firearms manufacturers. they have always felt this way. that attitude from banks has been around for years, it is not anything new due to the political climate.
apricotshot  [Team Member]
2/20/2009 10:54:00 AM EST
Originally Posted By Swamp_Rat_Shooter:
It is not just right now. banks have always taken a hands off approach to firearms manufacturers. they have always felt this way. that attitude from banks has been around for years, it is not anything new due to the political climate.


Really? Then how did all the large companies get started? Or is this just a recent development of the last few decades? I mean remington and S&W and Colt were never financed? It would be cool to check out where there investment capital comes from. Most likely in recent years I would assume .mil contracts.
Swamp_Rat_Shooter  [Team Member]
2/20/2009 1:12:39 PM EST
I surely would not compare the situation of a small company that has been around less then 10 years to companies that have been around as long as remington, colt and Smith and Wesson.....but how do they raise capital....

Smith and Wesson Holding Company is traded on the NASDAC
Sturm Ruger is on the New York Stock Exchange

they need money, the sell more stock.......

Remington has been around since 1816 has over 2500 employees and did well over $400 million in sales in 2008. don't think it is publicly traded, but it does have investors.

Colt also has been around an extremely long time..

These companies have huge shares in the market, gov't contracts, along with property and assets they can use as collateral. POF is a small, new company in just a single market. POF has a single owner/investor, Frank. He has built his company with his own money. Do you think the big dogs started out as big companies? No, I think they started small and were built up over time.
66427vette  [Member]
2/20/2009 1:41:49 PM EST
i would have no problem putting half down but you cant get a straight answer out of chris. been waiting 1 year on three pof 308s and every month for the last four he says end of ths month you have 70 guns ahead of you. i never bitched because they never had my money up front and was out nothing. then you have the people ordering uppers at retail and getting them in 3 months what gives . just give some straight answers and i will send a downpayment.
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